Could we merge Celtic with British?

[Grand Historian]

I had posted this earlier in the regular forums to get the community's feedback on whether or not this was a good suggestion, and since most of the reception I have got is positive, I feel confident in suggesting that we merge what's leftover of the Celtic Group with the British Culture Groups here. To quote my post that explains the reasoning:

This occurred to me when Breton got shifted into the French Culture Group, and was actually a direct consequence of it, but I think this would be better for gameplay (and a few historical reasons). First, it would solve the problem of the English culture converting their problems away, and make Great Britain a far more useful union (especially since British has only 3 cultures, and one of them almost never shows). And, though English is linguistically (and culturally) not much like Welsh, Scottish or Irish, all three are relatively closer to each other, but since Scottish is in the British group they get penalized for holding Irish/Welsh provinces and vice-versa. Likewise, though the English never really managed to pacify the Irish (to be fair, they ferociously resisted anyone who invaded, they just had a particular dislike of the English due to the consistency of their invasions), throughout most of the period, past 1500, they had very little trouble with the Welsh and Cornish. And, on less abstract note, the only Celtic Cultures left are the ones on the British Isles.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I'd hate to lose them for flavor reasons, but maybe we could make British and Celtic accept each other from the start?

 

[Lee Saxon]

By the way I wish they'd done the same thing with Breton (kept it in the Celtic group for flavor reasons but let France accept them from the start)

 

[grommile]

By the way I wish they'd done the same thing with Breton (kept it in the Celtic group for flavor reasons but let France accept them from the start)

They'd have to change the way cultural acceptance works to do that (which, y'know, I'm not saying would be a bad thing) since France owns zero Breton-cultured provinces at start.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Oh really? I would've assumed that there would already be a mechanic for manually adding to a country's accepted cultures list - for the benefit of modders if nothing else.

 

[AhoyDeerrr]

By the way I wish they'd done the same thing with Breton (kept it in the Celtic group for flavor reasons but let France accept them from the start)

This would require a complete rework of the culture mechanic which by the looks of things is unlikely to happen.

 

[grommile]

Oh really? I would've assumed that there would already be a mechanic for manually adding to a country's accepted cultures list - for the benefit of modders if nothing else.

You can manually add a culture (I think?) - but it will fall straight back off the list if it doesn't exceed the retention threshold (10% by default).

 

[MacDuffin]

I'll say what I said in the other thread, I think the Celtic group should be focused on more to make it more unique, rather then integrating it into English/Lowlander culture.
Even if it needs its own DLC, there's plenty to add through the clans, a more separated Ireland/Highlands/Mann/Islands, as well as possible new mechanics revolving around them and mercenaries.

The Lordship of the Isles was a independent title until 1493, where Clan MacDonald finally gave in to the Scottish crown, but the Highlanders remained highly independent.
The Celtic peoples weren't necessarily nationalistic, with no serious attempts to form nations, rather modifying existing ones, but it could be an entirely different mechanic on its own. Having to control a populace that has the manpower to fight consistently isn't something that should just be ignored by the devs.

 

[quinntan2222]

I don't think this is a good idea based on both flavor and history. Historically, England/Great Britain never had Irish or the Highland Scots as an "accepted culture." In fact, Northern Ireland was one of the few places in Europe where you could argue cultural conversion actually happened as the British Crown set up a system of plantations to colonize Northern Ireland with Protestant Englishman and Lowland Scots. Welsh I could accept being in the British group though, even if they did have to give up their customs and language to be accepted by the English. If anyone is worried about Celtic being too small of a culture, add Gaelic Scottish culture to the Highlands and Western Isles with the Lordship of the Isles (Innse Gall) as a tag since historically that's what they were.

 

[FleetingRain]

Oh really? I would've assumed that there would already be a mechanic for manually adding to a country's accepted cultures list - for the benefit of modders if nothing else.

You can. IIRC, Sicilian was an accepted culture by Spain on its history files by 1.11; some bookmarks where Spain has control over Italy gave it exactly 10% culture on Sicilian, so it never fell from Accepted from game start.


Problem is, as grommile said, France would lose Breton as Accepted the following month, simply because they don't have 10% of provinces (or is it development?) as Breton.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Right, but "technically you can add it, but it'll fall off the next time the game checks the requirements" means, for all intents an purposes, that you can't add it. What I was saying is that there ought to be a mechanic to actually, functionally add cultures manually for historical / flavor reasons.

 

[Heinrikr]

Ideally they would instead remake the culture system, but merging celtic and british makes sense under the current system.

 

[Thravid]

That's the same as saying the Finno-Ugric group should be merged with the Scandinavian group. I think they should split Scottish culture in Gaelic and Scottish, with Gaelic being in the Celtic culture group and Scottish in the British.

 

[Wizzington]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

 

[quinntan2222]

I think Welsh and Cornish could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

If that's the case, maybe the culture group should be renamed Gaelic to reflect that the culture group doesn't contain the Brythonic cultures i.e. Welsh, Cornish, Breton since they were/will be moved to the other groups. Plus Gaelic is a more historical term as it's what the Celtic people in Ireland, Scotland and Mann referred to themselves while Celt originates from a Greek word for a Gaulish tribe.

 

[net.split]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

This sounds great. More provinces would make Ireland an interesting challenge scenario for a tall nation (not the best location because of terrain but not impossibly bad either).

 

[Maria Theresa]

I also think some more provinces in Ireland would be most welcome.

 

[MadDjinn]

The "celts" had been long purged by this point given that they were almost entirely a mainland Europe group.

Switching it to Gaelic would make more sense and having it in Ireland/highlands and isles would work. Just ensure to have them revolt a lot to keep the British busy.

Welsh/Cornish definitely should be in the British/lowland scots group given that they had been incorporated without constant rebellion for a long time before this point. As well, they were considered different from the Gaels and Picts (Irish and highlands).

Though perhaps what's needed is an adjustment to the whole GB area. It all seems slightly off the historical path right now at the 1444 start date. Given some of the more recent changes, perhaps things could be adjusted.


Have Wales start off as a March. Use an act of parliament to unite it into england.

The lancasters and yorks were effectively wiped out with the war of the roses. If the Lancaster side wins, they should be renamed Tudor. No Lancaster name was used after the war of the roses. The Tudors came out of the welsh side of the line, which is a good way to allow for the act of parliament to unify England and Wales, then have Wales as acceptable. By having it as a March, it would be too costly to break the March side and vassal soak them compared to using the parliament.

If the yorks win, apparently parliament doesn't stick in game and so they'd be left with a March that isn't acceptable to them.

Ireland is a bit weird wrt history as well.

 

[Grand Historian]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

Wow, thanks for the reply. Anyways, if Britain is going to get expanded provincially (and even if not), then by all means I look forward to what you'll be able to cook up.

 

[Me_]

I think Welsh could conceivably be moved into the British group. Irish... not so much. Would want to add more provinces to Ireland and perhaps a Celtic Scottish Highland culture if we're reducing the Celtic group that much though.

Wouldn't it really make more sense to just remove the group? There is no real reason for its existence beyond Ireland. Braking Scotland in twain will hurt an already very weak country and having it composed of two different culture groups is going to result in plenty of odd revolts (since Highlandish will never defect to Scotland, assuming that Scotland becomes Lowlandish). Perhaps Irish should simply be a one-culture group, like Hungarian.