Could we make T4 dwelling and summon only please ?

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Jolly Joker

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It's a conundrum, though, because it MUST be better to produce 1 T4 than the correspomding number of lower-tier units, because you have to invest into a couple of things to get there. With production rollover that makes sense only if your unit numbers are generally very restricted (which would be bad) or if the T4s were indeed very superior (much more so than in AoW 3) which would be bad as well.

Production rollover will take away something I like to think of as some kind of uncertainty relation that helps balancing, because it adds a situational factor to the value of a unit. Imo.
 

Gloweye

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A big advantage of T4 may be a package of good things (high strength AND good mobility), which may be unavailable for lower tier units. Also, their pure combat value per stack slot remains an important consideration, especially if you have exploration site battles, where you can bring only 1 stack.
 

Fluksen

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[...] With production rollover that makes sense only if your unit numbers are generally very restricted (which would be bad) or if the T4s were indeed very superior (much more so than in AoW 3) which would be bad as well. [...]
I disagree I think they would need to be much superior to AoW3s T4. Imho most AoW3 T4 units would remain valid options even if AoW had production rollover mainly because every stack slot is valuable with the 6 units/stack and a T4 brings a lot more power/slot than anything else, just as Gloweye wrote:
A big advantage of T4 may be a package of good things (high strength AND good mobility), which may be unavailable for lower tier units. Also, their pure combat value per stack slot remains an important consideration, especially if you have exploration site battles, where you can bring only 1 stack.
Though I disagree with the high strength AND Good mobility a bit. Or if that is the case then there must be a counter to it (Pikemen are counters to T2 cavalry in AoW3 they are not much help against manticores).
Would need stack abilities, probably. Like Heroes have them.
+1
But already before sikbok wrote they have learned from AoW I was pretty optimistic that they'll have a good solution, now I'm even more optimistic :)
 

BloodyBattleBrain

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@BBB, the first thing I asked after the opening ceremony was production/research rollover, and it was confirmed already. we KNEW we had it in the back.

And I think it will supremely contribute to reduced T4 effectiveness.

Yeah I was there, and I remember now, but it is good to see it confirmed.

We got told alot of stuff remember, and half of it was unconfirmed/lacking details.
 

Leon Feargus

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Maybe another elegant solution to AI T4 spam is not to reduce the spam but to increase the variation. In aow3 a player could get 1 type of T4 guaranteed (well, almost) from class and some variation would come from dwellings. In planetfall, if every faction and every tech would provide a T4 option, then all players would be able to get 2 different kinds and this would mean the AI will make more varied stacks. On top of that I think it might be a good idea to have the module-system that´s already implemented apply to T4 as well, but in a different way. For example, what if a T4 could be produced with only 2 modules out of a possible 6? Let´s say the Vanguard Battlecruiser (Flying, Machine gun) can be equipped with Heat-seeking missiles, Forcefield, Turboboost, EMP shockwave, Warpdrive and Nuke. Not only would this create a lot of interesting choices for the players, it would also mean that facing a stack of AI Battlecruisers will still be a different situation every time.
 

HousePet

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The biggest issue for me about the T4s was that there was no reason not to mono stack most of them if you could.
Things like Manticore Riders, Eldritch Horrors, etc are able to deal with anything they came across and don't have many weaknesses.
So you start with a variety of different unit classes that complement and cover each other's weaknesses, and then the T4s turn up.
Its like someone taking a game of Rock Paper Scissors and adding in Bomb, which beats all.
 

Jolly Joker

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I don't know what games and settings you play, but in my experience it doesn't work that way. The only time you may want to do it is when you have just one opponent (left) and put everything to the same front. Even then it takes time to summon 6 Horrors, and you will use the first few in combination with other, non-T4 troops.
When you produce T4s you may get them faster, having a couple of production sites, but again, building a squadron of Manticore Riders isn't much different from building a squad of Draconian Fliers or Elven Gryphon Riders - or even Banshees. Here the power isn't the main thing - although 6 Manticores are no slouch -, but mobility.

However, a stack of 6 Manticores isn't unbeatable, obviously.
 

Jolt

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HousePet

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When you produce T4s you may get them faster, having a couple of production sites, but again, building a squadron of Manticore Riders isn't much different from building a squad of Draconian Fliers or Elven Gryphon Riders - or even Banshees. Here the power isn't the main thing - although 6 Manticores are no slouch -, but mobility.
Well yeah, some of the T3 units are equivalent to T4s in that there is no reason not to monostack them. But them being T3 doesn't mean they aren't equally problematic.
 

Jolly Joker

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But if you call that "equally problematic", then it's not about T4s, but about the mobility advantage of Flyers and even Floaters.

Now, Planetfall is a tech-oriented game, and flying/floating will be tech-based, probably. There may be requisites like fuel, and other mitigating factors, but even in a fantasy setting, in AoW 3 there should have been more options to counter Flyers, because people would have thought about how to counter them - say, you could span nets over towns to prohibit them to just fly over the walls (would require them to attack the net over a hex first, being very vulnrable in that situation). There is also the Double Gravity spell, and there might have been a hundred more things to counter them. Like concealment/invisibility.
 

Calm

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Just some thoughts :

I agree with BBB above that changing around how unit stacking and production rollover worked would have made a very big difference for the viability of low-tier units in AOW3. In fact I was just playing around with an idea in my head---what if there were no stack limit? Yeah, I know, the initial reaction is that you'd get huge stacks of doom, but considering how powerful battle-wide effects like walls and battlefield enchantments are, I think the counters seem fairly obvious and punishing. Flying units could also present a problem a la SC2 mutas, but if you gave archers an overwatch that would go a long way. High-tier spam in AOW3 "should" be countered by their high upkeep, but the "hidden" disadvantages of low-tier units---lack of production rollover, and limited stack space---end up overrulling them.

I know, I know, game came out four years ago. But even against the AI, I shouldn't have games where I'm only building Knights from eight different cities.
 

NINJEW

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so i guess there's 2 threads about T4s now?

on the AI chat: planetary annihilation (an rts) had a neural network AI, what they did there was they had the AI play against itself to create sample data. the AI started out pretty bad, but since they could just have the AI play itself with the game sped up, and just leave that running overnight, and the AI would improve every game, it eventually became a pretty decent rts AI (that is, it was pretty bad at expansion but otherwise it had some really annoying tricks up its sleeves)

on t4 chat: it's really annoying that once you get to the point where you have access to and afford T4s in AoW3, you just spam the singular t4 you have.

personally, my favored solution would be to create a variety of t4s and increase t4 access, so that even if you're only using t4s, it's not monostacks and the game is still interesting

another solution is to design every t4 in a fashion similar to the shrine of smiting: while shrines are extremely powerful and access to them is very worthwhile, their strength depends on having a large number of non-shrine units (and therefore t3) on the battlefield, essentially forcing the player to create varied unit compositions.



an important note about T4s: while theoretically the "weakness" of T4s is high cost, they're actually much more cost efficient than weaker units, mostly in part due to the battle size limit.

consider the example:

you have 6 manticore riders. your opponent has the equivalent cost in t1 swordsmen (approx 1 stack per manticore, so 6 stacks, or 18 sowrdsmen)
7 stacks can enter the battle. you have 1, your opponent has 6, that's 7 stacks, they can bring all of their t1 swordsmen to bear against you. your manticores probably die, but not without inflicting some decent losses

now lets say you have 18 manticore riders (3 stacks). your opponent then has 18 stacks of t1 swordsmen (108 swordsmen).

7 stacks maximum can enter the battle. you ahve 3 stacks of amnticores, so your opponent can levy 4 stacks of t1 swordsmen against you. 3 stacks of T4 manticores vs 4 stacks of t1 swordsmen does not end well for the swordsmen. in fact, assuming the manticores have martial arts training, their defense against the human swordsmen is an effective 18, while the human swordsmen's melee attack strength is 11 (i'm not taking medals or strategic spells into consideration here because this just a simple example). so every time the manticore whallops the swordsman for 22 damage after the swordsman's defense is taken into account (20 damage if the swordsman is in defense mode), the swordsman is only hitting back for 3 damage. so, essentially, the swordsmen lose the battle without killing, or even inflicting substantial damage to, any of the manticores. so, the guy who spammed t1 here just lost 1200 gold and accomplished almost nothing. the manticores can definitely go on to gobble up all the rest of the 108 (now 90) swordsmen, and very possibly don't lose any manticores in return.

to put the principal shortly: because t4 units have higher stats, they will take less casualties in combat, and thus you will spend far less replacing them. while this is an extreme example, it definitely plays out similarly vs higher tier units as well (3 stacks of manticores will clobber 3 stacks of racial t3s. while anyone can obviously point out that the t4s will win, what might be less obvious is that maybe 3 or 4 manticores die in this fight, compared to 18 t3 units. the t3 guy lost way more resources than the t4 guy! devastatingly so!) going all in on t4s ultimately saves you a lot of money in the long run, just because you're turning losses into pyrrhic victories, and pyrrhic victories into total victories. throw in that all t4s are also incredibly mobile, and thus outmaneuvering a smaller number of them is actually fairly difficult, and the result is: there's really no reason not to go all in on t4s once you unlock them. you'll win more battles and end up with more money doing it.
 

Nerdfish

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This is the OG of the T4 threads, I made it months ago :)

On the topic: We need strategic spells that wipe out entire stacks, these will hardcounter T4 stacks, because those kills any army in one click no matter what.
 
Last edited:

Jolly Joker

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Ninjew, that's all just theory. 18 Manticores cost 576 upkeep and 5000 gold plus 1000 mana to produce. Every production facility needs the Beast Lair for 200 gold and 300 mana (and the two before) and if you want to be able to produce them in acceptable time you need every production site to have a serious production value as well.

So since you want to produce the 18 quite fast, once you start you must have a +600 gold income each turn (or plunder enough on the way). So the problem isn't the T4, but instead thefact that your economy ALLOWS T4 spamming.

Now, what I don't understand is this: why didn't you save the effort with that kind of economy, don't research Manticore, don't build beast lair and produce a ton of Warbreeds LOTS of turns earlier? Or Gryphon Riders? Or Drac Fliers?

You also can summon additional T4s at that stage, if you must have another T4 variety.
 

NINJEW

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if by "just theory" you mean "i've personally seen and experienced it dozens of times in action" then sure

to address the rest of your post: it's all just settler spam man. if you have 18 cities that can each make a manticore in 5 turns, then in 5 turns you have 18 manticores.

if you build an observatory in every one, that's 360 research without taking anything else into account. produce manticore rider costs 1200 research, so you'd have it in 4 turns.

now, 18 cities is a somewhat unrealistic number, but it's a similar principal. you could build warbreeds...or just gear up to make manticores 7 turns later.

in this specific instance, warbreeds are actually not that great (unfortunately. i've tried many times to make a competitive build order centered around them. had a lot more luck with phalanx). they also can't fly and will still die horribly to your opponent's stack of 18 eldritch horrors (which he got like 10 turns ago because sorcerer is stupid). or any t4, really. "big chunks of elemental damage" is the MO of most T4s, and also inconveniently the warbreed's biggest counter. you can combine them with death march as a neat trick, but they won't be winning any major battles for you, and manticores are mobile enough to perform similar feats, so why would i go for warbreeds?

summoning additional T4s requires putting a lot of your research into getting more t4s (i assume you're talking about summoning the angels?)... and why would you do that over relentless army and bloodbath and global assault? you already have a t4 that performs great in 95% of the situations you will find yourself in. better things to do with your research. it's a nice trick if you've already gotten all the other big spells, i guess, but by that point you've probably already drowned your opponent in manticores and won so who cares
 

NINJEW

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if it seems unrealistic to you jj then i guess i should mention that in an actual game you won't have no army, then suddenly pull dozens of manticores out of your asshole. you'll already have a t3 army that you'll integrate manticores into as they pop out, while economically you shift 100% into manticore production. the more of your army is made up of manticores, the more likely you are to win a major fight, so you just keep phasing manticores in until you've got nothing but manticores.
 

Jolly Joker

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That's what I wanted to hear. If settler spamming is the problem, then why don't you simply suggest to fix or address THAT? I don't know how often I have to repeat myself here, but with settler spamming being a source of humanplayer superiority over AI as well (who is handicapped in this regard), you don*t even have to play without settlers, you just have to mod the necessary minimum distance between settlements (which is a change of one single number). I did that ages ago, and it makes the AI a lot more competetive. I mean, you mod things a lot, so where is the problem?

That's for AoW 3, but if I understand PF right, spamming towns won't be possible there, because of the sectors, which means, that T4 spamming won't be an issue in PF.

About the issue of having an army already - bolstering your existing army with T4s only is normal, up to a certain point, if you have all the numbers you need, which depends on map size and # of opponents. You cannot see everything with a 1 on 1 view on limited space, and if you don't have the economic force to produce enough T4s when you are in need of numbers as well, you just HAVE to not only produce T4s, but also good bang for the buck - filler stuff. A Dred needs Engineers, a Necro Supports and so on.