could the royal navy defeat the us navy?

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SeekTruthFromFx

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compare the prolonged defense of the Philippines with the British in Malaysia, for an example

This is an odd example in an otherwise great post. I have the utmost respect for the Filipino and US men and women who defended the Philippines but the orders of battle are surely relevant:

Battle of Malaya
Japan: 3 divisions, plus tank group
UK/India: 3 divisions, and 4 garrison brigades

Invasion of the Philippines:
Japan: 2 divisions plus one garrison brigade
US/Philippines: 11 divisions plus tank group

Obviously these are crude comparisons, but the US was largely able to hold on longer because they started with a larger garrison and because the Japanese put their main effort into Malaya. It's true that the British sent reinforcements in January and February, but they did little besides surrender in Singapore, so they were irrelevant to the comparison (though a monumental act of stupidity in the wider context of the War). You can't draw wider conclusions about the relative effectiveness of the armies from the length of the campaigns.
 
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208

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It seems very unlikely to me that Canada would follow the UK into a war against the USA. Canada effectively earned its right to an independent foreign policy in/after WWI, and this would be a (the) prime example of a good reason for it.

At best, then, the UK could use Newfoundland as a staging point.
 
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Acaios

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definitely the UK.

USA scientists were the worst in the world at those times. without uk help, they couldn't have radars, self sealing tanks, welding techniques, fire control for ships, large caliber guns for planes and tanks and so on.
Industrial production is not the only factor in the world.

Also, unlike Germany, UK could easily bring war into us territories effectively damaging us industrial capacity.
 
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PlacidDragon

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They also had the Sea Hurricane, and in the rather unlikely situation that they're still duking it out in 1945, the Sea Fury. Further, calling the Seafire 'not a success' is a bit of a stretch - it served all over the world, and was defending against kamikaze attacks at Iwo Jima. It definitely had its issues, and I have sympathy for pilots trying to get around them, but it was an important and capable CAP aircraft. That said, any conflict between the USN and RN is likely to occur more when they're using Sea Hurricanes and the F4, respectively.
It was a tad simplistic to say perhaps, yes :) To elaborate, the Seafire suffered from lots of problems most particularly early in its career, which i assumed would be at the hight of the conflict. At later dates, especially if we add the Sea Fury into the mix, they'd be going up against Hellcats, Corsairs and Bearcats (with the jet age just around the corner). With the US numerical advantage, i dont see how that could end well.
 
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Antediluvian Monster

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USA scientists were the worst in the world at those times. without uk help, they couldn't have radars, self sealing tanks, welding techniques, fire control for ships, large caliber guns for planes and tanks and so on.

I get that you are probably just trolling, but the part on welding is just too ironic seeing how opposed British builders were to structural developments like longitudinal framing and IIRC welding too. It got to the point the DNC had to admonish on of the major DD builders (Thornycroft?).
 
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steve213

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definitely the UK.

USA scientists were the worst in the world at those times. without uk help, they couldn't have radars, self sealing tanks, welding techniques, fire control for ships, large caliber guns for planes and tanks and so on.
Industrial production is not the only factor in the world.

Also, unlike Germany, UK could easily bring war into us territories effectively damaging us industrial capacity.[/QUOTE
definitely the UK.

USA scientists were the worst in the world at those times. without uk help, they couldn't have radars, self sealing tanks, welding techniques, fire control for ships, large caliber guns for planes and tanks and so on.
Industrial production is not the only factor in the world.

Also, unlike Germany, UK could easily bring war into us territories effectively damaging us industrial capacity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_inventions_(1890–1945) I'm going to ask you to take a look at this.
 
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Zinegata

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lets say, british politicians somehow come to the conclusion that the US and not Germany is the biggest thread to their empire and it comes to battle at sea. Who wins?

You need to specify the year and what each side is trying to achieve.

I have to note that the British battle line was desperately undermanned in the early 30s, with only two modern Nelson-class battleships. Everything else was World War 1 vintage ships or modernized ones. America's battleline meanwhile was mostly WW1 vintage too but they were all built to a post-Jutland standard.
 

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I have to note that the British battle line was desperately undermanned in the early 30s, with only two modern Nelson-class battleships. Everything else was World War 1 vintage ships or modernized ones. America's battleline meanwhile was mostly WW1 vintage too but they were all built to a post-Jutland standard.

Regarding battleline, from Friedman I get the overall impression that USN did pretty good job at keeping it up to date too. Far more so than Royal Navy, which selectively upgraded few of it's ships. The four almost entirely unmodernized R class were particularily despondent with worn engines, WW1 era fire-control tables and hazardous lack of deck protection.
 
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here lies the answer to your question. Long story short. Stalemate. Jutland in the Atlantic, Canada overrun (probably annexed). Of course TV isn't exactly the most accurate however they do reference a American Navy Wargame on the study.
 

tommylotto

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You can't draw wider conclusions about the relative effectiveness of the armies from the length of the campaigns.
Nor from the mere number of divisions. You are invited to peruse the OOB in the Philippines here. If you drill down to see the composition of the American forces you will see that the vast majority were Philippino reservists with only a few weeks of training. Even the one regular US Army division only had one regiment of Americans, the other two being made up of Philippino scouts.
 
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The last nail to USA coffin is nuclear weapon.

USA didynt trully put alot effort in it. But UK did and historicaly USA was able to make them thanks to UK and becouse they lobbed for it.

When at war with USA i think UK would look at others venues of obtaining it.
 

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No.

Next question?

Just as intelligent an answer.

Where would the USN and RN even fight? Off the coast of Canada to stop the flow of material to North America?

See, in a war between UK and USA, I have a hard time trying to figure out where the major battles would even be if the US is the defender.

It's a silly question.
 
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battlemac007

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Just some points to consider. First, an attack from Canada in 1939 (or before) was out of the question, as the Canadian military was far weaker than even the US military at the time (no tanks, no modern aircraft and only a handful of ships). Second, the US probably would not have developed the P-51. Third, there would have been no destroyers for bases swap (50 DD to Britain).
 
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My opinion is that Canada's plan to attack and damage nearby American cities, (damaging some limited industry) I also think that Canada would be overrun but after WW1 they would value there independence and firmly 'Canadian' identity, so I can see it being a very hard occupation for the Americans.

This leads to the Royal Navy vs the USN - Assuming outbreak of war between 36-39

Carriers - Britain and America both have a similar number of Carriers at the outbreak of the war, with Britain having marginally more in construction. American Carriers have superior deckspace, and thus plane numbers but are optimised for Pacific rather than Atlantic operations. American carrier based planes are superior to British carrier based planes. British Carriers having slightly less planes, but -much- thicker armour and armoured decks while also being optimised for Atlantic/North Sea operations would have a slight advantage, but would be let down by inferior carrier based planes. Historically British Carrier aircraft were not much of a focus as efforts were to build and maintain superior land based aircraft to win the Battle of Britain - If this were to become a Battle of the Atlantic I think we would see after the early stages of the war superior/equal to American planes due to this being the focus of British Scientists.

Other Capital Ships - Royal Navy has more, but more outdated capital ships than America, leading to America having a theoretical edge, HOWEVER despite being outdated British ships did have superior Anti-Aircraft Guns, and naval guns nullifying that edge.

Other Ships - Much like capital ships that pattern of older but better technology seems to be apparent throughout other ship classes.

This leads us rather neatly onto modern technology. To be frank Britain was ahead in things like Radar, Naval Guns, AA Guns, and Torpedos. America WOULD catch up but it would be a problem for the first ships rolled out post outbreak of the war (First two years) in which while America would produce MORE Britain would produce better.

Diplomacy - Britain would of course bring in all of the Commonwealth, I do not see a situation where Australia, NZ, Canada, South Africa and the Raj do not join the war. Britain might also receive the assistance from the Japanese, and from Portugal. Portugal having a similar impact to that of New Zealand/Australia. If Japan were to join on the British side then they would tie up considerable American Navy Assets in the pacific that would result in America being out numbered for the early-mid period of the war.

My Guess at an Approximate Timeline - Assuming no external intervention bar the Japanese


War is Declared. Outbreak 1939 - America declare war on Britain, after Britain boards an American ship in the Atlantic to capture an Irish Free State terrorist. The American merchant ship sends out a distress call, an American warship responds resulting in a naval skirmish in which the American warship is sunk by a British torpedo.

Canada successfully burns nearby cities, and razes industry before retreating ahead of the American Army.

Canada digs in and holds despite heavy fighting for a number of months (Six or so - time for Britain to send some assistance along with Australia, and NZ)

Royal Navy begins to move into the Atlantic, America moves to oppose them lacking the Pacific Fleet due to fears of Japanese Intervention. The Royal Navy have moderate success in an Atlantic naval battle, keeping sea lines open to supply and reinforce Canada and allowing the Royal Navy to raid the American coast.

1941 - Fall of Canada despite early success holding the American army eventually mobilization of the Americans managed to beat Canada. Due to Naval superiority most of the B.E.F moved onto New Foundland which remains under British control as an American landing is not tenable due to losses. Canadian cities are severely damaged but put up continued resistance against American occupation.

After 2 years of this type of warfare, American production catches up and Britain starts to pull back. British support for the war is high and American support is low. British ships are superior but production is massively out paced. America attempts to knock out the Asian colonies by striking at Singapore, Australia and New Zealand.

Japan which is at war with China and running out of Oil, sees that America is moving in the Pacific a combination of paranoia and opportunism sees Japan strike at the American Pacific fleet this is catastrophic for America and sees them pushed out of the Island bases. Invasion of Phillipines occur.

Stalemate continues into 1942/43 - British technological advantage is now nullified in all areas except Nuclear and Jet Aircraft. Gloster Meteor makes it first flight in march 1943 as it did historically far ahead of the American efforts to develop a jet fighter.

1944 - Smaller industrial capacity but with superior land based aircraft based in Newfoundland along with equal/slightly superior carrier aircraft allow Britain to retain air superiority over Newfoundland and Naval Superiority in the Atlantic. Priority put into creating a naval version of the Meteor succeeds in late 1944 production begins immediately. America is a year or two away from jet aircraft.

1945 - Britain develops Nuclear Weapons in Newfoundland (six months ahead of America) and builds a single bomb. This would place the empire in a terrible position debt wise - (The cost of doing this alone was prohibitive which was the main reason that Britain chose to join the manhattan project. However British contribution made the manhattan project actually succeed - It's my view Britain would have beaten America to the bomb but it would have been incredibly costly and effectively bankrupt the Empire after the war.) A single nuclear weapon is dropped on New York, Britain informs America to leave Canada, and attempts to bring them to the negotiation table under the guise that they have more Nuclear Weapons and will target Washington, Philadelphia, and other major eastern seaboard cities if America does not negotiate. The American president is informed that while it is unlikely Britain has any more nuclear weapons, if in six months America does successfully test a nuclear weapon it would have no real way of successfully getting it onto Britain, due to British air defence and radar stations.

America surrenders conditionally, to Britain.


End result - America pays Britain war reperations, and is put under a washington esque treaty limiting its carrier fleet. America is forced to pay for as much of the war as possible. The Philippines and it's pacific islands go to Japan apart from those closest to Australia and New Zealand. The Canadian and American border remains the same. Puerto Rico is passed to Britain as is the Panama Canal. Most of the result of the war is in the economic treaty. That manages to ensure the Empire doesn't collapse, Britain itself is untouched by the war meaning the money recieved would keep the Empire strong.


Comments: It's down to who achieves a number of things 'first' when its Britain vs America. Radar, Jet Aircraft and Nuclear Weapons. Not to mention ship design, British ship design has always been Atlantic focussed while America saw the Pacific as its main theatre for naval operations this meant that during the early war 1939-41 Britain would have success in the Atlantic allowing Canada to hold out longer, and provide dogged resistance and keeping Newfoundland free from invasion. 41-43 is the great stalemate. Britain is not longer strong enough to strike out at the American coast due to superior American ship production but is able to fight in the Atlantic with a great deal of success not to mention it's superior starting technology manifests itself as a slight advantage even at this stage. 44-45 is the end of the war and the period of experimental weapons. Britain historically beat America to military jet aircraft, and was far ahead of America in developing nuclear weapons. In my view leading Britain to a situation in which it knows it will lose the war in 46-48 if it remains conventional but by using a nuclear bomb it can bring America to the negotiating table. If Japan did not join in 1941 I don't think Britain would be able to hold onto Newfoundland or keep the Atlantic stalemate going as advantageously as I describe, and the end result would be similar but also involve a more damaging war for Britain. Post War: Britain would be booming (no blitz) but would be full of debt - this would be payed for by the Americans in some way due to the treaty. Britain and Japan would probably end up creating an Anti-American treaty, Canada would have a massive enmity toward America and would be more Pro-British.
 
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Zinegata

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Regarding battleline, from Friedman I get the overall impression that USN did pretty good job at keeping it up to date too. Far more so than Royal Navy, which selectively upgraded few of it's ships. The four almost entirely unmodernized R class were particularily despondent with worn engines, WW1 era fire-control tables and hazardous lack of deck protection.

Royal Navy enthusiasts... would take issue with Friedman's assessment somewhat :p. I don't know enough for sure to take sides on the issue; other than both sides would have a very vintage line up in 1930.
 

ikalugin

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Basically the scenarion "UK" wins against the USA is when "UK" has other sources of resources and IC and thus is in alliance/occupied by either victorious USSR or victorious NAZI Germany and it all probably happens in the later half of 40s.
 

Duke Von Hannover

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As an addendum its important to note this would also result in Germany probably beating the USSR in continental Europe, as neither Britain nor America provide lend lease to the USSR and Germany doesnt have to worry about the battle of Britain or the Atlantic. The British don't slow down the invasion of Greece meaning that Barbarossa occurs earlier and this makes Moscow fall leading to a situation where in 1946. Britain, Japan, Germany and America are all of similar strength. With the only Naval super power being Britain but Britain lacks an army or air force to compete with Germany.

Important to note also its my view that the last year in which Britain would successfully stalemate/win a naval war with America is 1939. Any later and the technological/production disparity becomes too big, even with external help.

Britain could no longer win a land war with America around 1900, my view is it took 40 years for the navy to realise this.
 
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