The main idea is more or less correct, just one question what do you mean by German "multiple fronts" in 1941,42,43?
Could the Germans have done anything to take Leningrad in 41/42?
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The main idea is more or less correct, just one question what do you mean by German "multiple fronts" in 1941,42,43?
Taking Leningrad doesn't matter a lot in the overall situation because it wasn't a major rail hub like Moscow was. Would it have freed up some German forces sure but would it have mattered in the whole front not a lot.
He means the different fronts Germany was fighting in. Scandinavia, France, Africa, Greece, later on there would be Italy as well and another French front.
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At the start of barbarossa 45 german divisions where kept on the west coast and more than 1500 planes grounded there. If england had been kicked out of the battle in 1940 by not following the 10 june stop order. at least 30 of those divisions would have been available to push towards Moscow. Not even counting those 1500 planes as support on the east front... Those divisions would have been enough to close the net around Kiev without taking on the North and center Group strength, letting them continue teir march on Moscow and Leningrad.
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And what should they do? Bombard their own population, while the Germans take the city? Battleships are really good when they are going to have seabattles not stop land invasions.
I sometimes would like to know how the war had fared if Hitler restrained himself to be a politician instead of a military micro manager.
Uhm, yes? You really think those guns would have stopped the Germans? They could have easily blasted the whole fleet with the Luftwaffe, and Zhukov was the only reason they didn't scuttle the fleet because the Germans would have easily taken it for themselves.
Look, this is probably getting dangerously into 'not allowed to discuss' territory, but it's a pretty well established fact that the Germans intentionally left Leningrad besieged in 1941. Leningrad was just a part of the whole Barbarossa plan that called for the starvation of 30 million people.
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Um still not following, by multiple fronts in 1941-1943 you mean garrison divisions stationed in Europe, Scandinavia fighting partisans and 3 divisions in Africa compared to 200 veteran fully equipped German divisions on Eastern front not mentioning Romania, Italy ect???
Yeah those was what he was talking about. About half of the axis force at that time was elsewhere.
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there were not 200 veteran fully equiped divisions on the eastern front but 156 including 104 infantry divisions in which 30 were freshly gathered ones, 12 of those being disbanded before decembre 1941 to be sent back into germans industries... On the west and south front 56 divisions were still mobilized In those 56 30 were plainly active and trained and could have been sent on the east front if not blocked on the west coast. But the more important is that there were 1500 grounded airplanes on the west coast while the luftwaffe only gathered 2700 planes for barbarossa... Add those strength 1500 planes more than 50% more and 30 division to spread in Russia... it would have made the difference.
In august and septembre 1940 North (leningrad) and central (moscow) groups were stopped and diverted towards Kiev.... The 30 divisions freed from the west would have done that job , giving One and an half month more for those groups to push towards their goals and not be slowed by rasputisa in octobre away of them. With the germans at Moscow's door by octobre. it would have been much more difficult to avoid the fall of the city... the first reenforcment from siberia only arrived late novembre.
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Agreed but with an addendum. Germany assisting Italy in Greece delayed the Russian invasion by up to two months. The German attack ground to a halt not far from Moscow due to the weather becoming untenable for attacks and the stiffening resistance. There would not have been a huge shift in either side's military means if Hitler, et al. had decided to go in the spring of the next year instead of the late invasion of '41. All things being equal the Germans would have 1-2 months of better weather for their advance. So just look at a map of their year-end advancement and conservatively move it east by 50-150 miles. See what suddenly turns from Soviet to Nazi. Also, keep in mind that its easier to fight in the snow on foot than in the air. The cold weather affected machines earlier than the ground troops so planes were the first things grounded due to storms and/or the bitter cold freezing the engine oil, then tanks, then finally infantry groups. So envision an extra month of invasion with air support before things grind to a halt.
If the Germans had been able to take Moscow and one or two big cities the Soviet position would have been much more willing to negotiate and sacrifice land in the West. Reminder - so much land being taken made Stalin to put massive amounts of materiel into factories far to the east - far away from the German invasion. That began in late '41, logistically over the winter, then into '42 and beyond. Losing Moscow would also mean losing the central government administration organization and logistics. No matter if you move the capital, and even if everyone gets out alright, communications and efficiencies are shot for a long time after.
Historical revisionists aside, the winter did not stop the Germans, but it made the last month or two of battle harder on the Germans because of deteriorating conditions.
Germans didn't have winter clothing
Motor oil compounds/engine fluids freeze unless you know it gets cold in your neck of the woods and adjust the formulae accordingly. Reminder - the winter of '41-'42 was the coldest of the twentieth century and began early.
the German Army was literally not equipped or outfitted to combat in that latitude (Hudson Bay for persons in the America's) and knowing what the future plan was more thought would have gone into the logistical support of the invasion with an earlier in the year start time.
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Leningrad was essential! As long as Leningrad wasn't taken, the problem of the northern flank remained unsolved. As long as the northern flank was not secured, the offensive against Moscow couldn't be conducted in earnest. As long as Moscow... and so on. That shows you that Leningrad was a pre-requisite for the following operations necessary to win the war.
Options in 1941:
a) using the historical plan:
Leningrad could have been taken in July/August 1941 one if the panzer group hadn't been diverted towards the centre. Early on in Barbarossa, Leningrad was weakly defended but the OKW was too hesitant to take it in full force in favour of a futile siege.
b) using an alternative plan:
Many historians criticize the attack on three fronts and suggest that the Wehrmacht would have done better if the offensive was concentrated on the North and Centre, basically anything north of the Pripyat marshes. With a southern front on defence, the invasion force would have been stronger towards Leningrad and Moscow. I don't know if that assumption would have lead to better results, but it's an option nonetheless.
Options in 1942:
Use fake intelligence to suggest a full-fledged Fall Blau to divert Soviet entrenchment efforts in the North. Blitz the Don Bassin in June (not as late as historically in early July), but then swing left towards Moscow and catch the Soviets by surprise. At the same time start the heavy bombardment of Leningrad and cut it off entirely with the second assault south of Leningrad (with less force than in the South). The additional manpower that might be needed could be gathered by slightly reducing garrisons in Norway and Western Europe and utilizing women in the workforce further (even "democratic" Britain was using more women in the industry).
Well actually yes, these guns draw a line which Germans would not cross. I do agree that If you throw enough meat in grinder you can brake it, but that would be suicide for whole war theater. You do understand that It's not Perl harbor, that there were tons of prepared fighters, land AA gun forts, city AA guns, navy AA guns ect? I would agree that Luftwaffe could sink all ships (and by the way they did managed to seriously damage "Marat" BB by lucky shot) and destroy all artillery forts but the same they would take severe loses. And Baltic fleet moved to Leningrad before Zhukov was appointed there.
My main point is that Germans didn't take the City because it would be too costly for the whole war and not because they planed to siege it at thirst place. At the start of war the Barbarossa plan stated that Moscow should be taken only after Leningrad falls and It's a fact.
Those guns are easy to take out though. They aren't individual artillery pieces spread over grassland or worse, in woods, they're lined up on metal island that sink relatively easy once you put holes in them. Lock them into port and bomb the unmoving targets. Very easy bombing runs. Hitting a ship moving at its combat speed is a lot different.
The Kiev mistake cost the Soviets an entire fronts worth of soldiers, took some of their most industrialized areas for weapons production, and opened up a new avenue of supply and attack for Typhoon. How "stupid" and "useless" is it to clear your gigantically extended flanks before going on a huge advance away from your railheads, and setting your enemy up for encirclement (Vyazma-Bryansk pockets)? Contrary to all the German revisionists, the Kiev encirclement was the best thing that could've been done before Typhoon (not to mention encouraging the Soviets into trying to relieve pressure on Kiev, which was a near success but that's another story entirely). When Typhoon was prepared, it was able to be supplied for longer because the supplies caught up and they hit surprised soviet defenders who didn't expect to see an offensive so late in the year.
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#1 Yes they could have both in -41 and -42.
#2 If resources had been made available.
#2 If resources had been made available.
From all this discussion i surmise one thing:
SAG's in port should auto shore bombard (maybe with a little bonus to shore bombardment effectiveness) if their province gets attacked.
SAG's in port should auto shore bombard (maybe with a little bonus to shore bombardment effectiveness) if their province gets attacked.
I must disagree with you about "one or two big cities", history example of Russian spirit (or maybe stubborn/stupidity
): Napoleon did take Moscow and french army didn't oppress civilian population that hard as German. And as you mentioned all main industry could support red army even if European part would be occupied.About winter, mud, motors, clothing ect we always forget that it works both ways, Soviet people were not different species with additional hair, yes they grew in harsher environment and better knew how to get worm in winter, but it won't save you when its -30 C and you got summer boots.
I always admired cliche that there were 1 rifle for 2 soldiers in Red Army but during winter all soviet soldiers wore full winter uniforms. My bet on street magic
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Useless or stupid were bad word choices from myself. They had to take it but not at the cost of their offensive against Moscow because all they did was an order from Hitler to stop and rush the panzer south to Kiev... All the generalität protested as it was stupid to stop the panzers... but Hitler insisted and thus they stopped and started to move back and south... But the pressure from the high officers finally paid and the panzers were ordered to go back on their primary goals (Moscow and Leningrad) the panzer didn't even fight for Kiev. So it was just moving armies for nothing they could have gone straight to their first goal and the rest of the army would have taken Kiev by its own... So that's why it was stupid and useless it just gave the Russian one and an half month more to prepare their capital's defenses...
I must disagree with you about "one or two big cities", history example of Russian spirit (or maybe stubborn/stupidity
About winter, mud, motors, clothing ect we always forget that it works both ways, Soviet people were not different species with additional hair, yes they grew in harsher environment and better knew how to get worm in wither, but it won't save you when its -30 C and you got summer boots.
I always admired cliche that there were 1 rifle for 2 soldiers in Red Army but during winter all soviet soldiers wore full winter uniforms. My bet on street magic
I'm not saying they were a different species, nor am I saying it was winter that stopped the advance. But it did make it more difficult. Look at how the defenders of Stalingrad were outfitted. Because they were in almost a full siege defense, they were outfitted accordingly. And logistically, coats are easier to outfit than rifles. Factories making clothes can switch to other types more easily than factories changing to making rifles or ammunition. Besides, not every front had units with soldiers to one rifle. That horrible tactic was limited to near suicidal charges of german positions in already besieged places.
But it is absolutely true that engine fluids for Soviet vehicles could withstand much colder temperatures than German ones.
Mud helps the defender, not hurts him. (Except for counterattacks) Snow and cold helps the defender, not hurts him.
Please see: Chew, Allen F. (1981), "Fighting the Russians in Winter: Three Case Studies" Combat Studies Institute. In December of '41 Winter Coats were readily available at Soviet Supply depots and had begun making their way en masse to front line divisions.
German horses froze to death in the cold. The more native horses survived. When the cold freezes your engine oil trucks become near useless. When your horses keel over and die from the cold you have a logistical nightmare.
Soviet tanks had higher ground clearance and wider tracks - i.e. less affected by deep snow on top of frozen mud. When you have to light fires under your artillery pieces because the recoil lubricant is frozen you have problems. When your SMGs don't work because the oils freeze and you instead use captured Soviet SMGs, you have a problem. Most problems were solved by the '42 winter, but that first winter was a brutal shock to the system for the attackers.
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The victory at Kiev was of course important, but the question remains whether the diverted panzer army contributed to its fall. If I recall the sources I've read correctly then the panzer army wasn't needed.
The real problem was rather the unsolved northern flank which lead Hitler to halt the Moscow advance. He should have used the panzer army though to take out Leningrad.
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