Could the AI please stop cheating on sieges

[Squirrelloid]

So, if the human player wants to siege a fort, he needs to bring n x 1000 troops to the party, where n is the level of the fort. The AI seems to have no such restriction, and will happily siege level 2 forts with a single infantry unit. Strangely enough, this flagrant disregard for the rules was, as far as I can remember, not mentioned by Wiz in the list of ways the AI cheats. And it's really aggravating, since it defeats half the reason for building higher level forts in the first place. Surely there's no reason for this? It's not like the AI doesn't conglomerate units where possible - the only time this comes up is when the AI runs off with a single unit after getting clobbered, and if you don't bother to run it down and kill it then it'll siege a province down.

Also, could the forums not log us out after 10 minutes. It's really annoying. I don't care what the features are if I can't just stay logged in.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Never had something like that happen in any of my games...

 

[Squirrelloid]

Never had something like that happen in any of my games...

It's been doing this for forever. I find it hard to believe you've never noticed. Do you even play?

Proof:

 

[josh127]

It's been doing this for forever. I find it hard to believe you've never noticed. Do you even play?

Proof:

How many defenders are in the fort? The fort level does not matter, tit is based on the actual number of defenders. If there's more than 1000 defenders, post it in the bug reports, as that would be a bug.

 

[Colonization]

What's the size of the defending garrison?

 

[Frossa]

It's been doing this for forever. I find it hard to believe you've never noticed. Do you even play?

Proof:

You didn't even show us the Garrison number, which is what matters. Fort level adds a thousand garrison per level, but if the besiegers have more troops than the garrison they're able to siege it.

 

[BFTeixeira]

It's been doing this for forever. I find it hard to believe you've never noticed. Do you even play?

Proof:

No, i don't. What's EU IV?

 

[hwoosh]

You didn't even show us the Garrison number, which is what matters. Fort level adds a thousand garrison per level, but if the besiegers have more troops than the garrison they're able to siege it.

Yes, and he didn't show us the troop on the map, which should have the "red sticks" symbol if the siege is not progressing.

 

[Frossa]

Yes, and he didn't show us the troop on the map, which should have the "red sticks" symbol if the siege is not progressing.

I think that would make the -42% counter thing yellow instead of red, so I'd assume the siege actually is progressing, but that the Garrison is just too small.

 

[moyang]

As others pointed, attacker only needs same number with garrison, not fort level * 1000.

 

[PouetVL]

well what really defeat the purpose of fort is that in most game where you expend, you level 4 fort will be in the middle of your country where NO enemy will ever reach...
fort cannot be moved, extra manpower means more army, means that it can intercept the enemy before it reach your low level fort...
depending on country fortifying some province is worth it... as France I fortify Dauphiné and Ile de france mainly...

 

[LarryLeica]

So, if the human player wants to siege a fort, he needs to bring n x 1000 troops to the party, where n is the level of the fort. The AI seems to have no such restriction, and will happily siege level 2 forts with a single infantry unit. Strangely enough, this flagrant disregard for the rules was, as far as I can remember, not mentioned by Wiz in the list of ways the AI cheats. And it's really aggravating, since it defeats half the reason for building higher level forts in the first place. Surely there's no reason for this? It's not like the AI doesn't conglomerate units where possible - the only time this comes up is when the AI runs off with a single unit after getting clobbered, and if you don't bother to run it down and kill it then it'll siege a province down.

Also, could the forums not log us out after 10 minutes. It's really annoying. I don't care what the features are if I can't just stay logged in.

It's been mentioned but the fort level is irrelevant, it's the garrison size that's important. As you haven't shown us the rest of the screen I'd say it looks like BS.

well what really defeat the purpose of fort is that in most game where you expend, you level 4 fort will be in the middle of your country where NO enemy will ever reach...
fort cannot be moved, extra manpower means more army, means that it can intercept the enemy before it reach your low level fort...
depending on country fortifying some province is worth it... as France I fortify Dauphiné and Ile de france mainly...

Big forts around your borders and defensive ideas to give them attrition does wonders for the enemies manpower... They have a habit of going for 'strategic' provinces, so trade centers and the like.

 

[Squirrelloid]

Why would it depend on garrison strength? If they're not assaulting, they're simply preventing supplies from reaching the fort while they stand off and use artillery to try to knock holes in the wall. The number of men needed to effectively interdict resupply is going to depend on the fortifications, not the guys manning them. I always assumed the required siege army was what was needed to invest the fortress by circumvallation, since that's the model that actually makes sense.

 

[yerm]

Why would it depend on garrison strength? If they're not assaulting, they're simply preventing supplies from reaching the fort while they stand off and use artillery to try to knock holes in the wall. The number of men needed to effectively interdict resupply is going to depend on the fortifications, not the guys manning them. I always assumed the required siege army was what was needed to invest the fortress by circumvallation, since that's the model that actually makes sense.

What you think makes sense and what the game actually does are two entirely different things. Not only that, but this system is used in other Paradox games, so the question being begged here is do YOU even play?

 

[BFTeixeira]

Why would it depend on garrison strength? If they're not assaulting, they're simply preventing supplies from reaching the fort while they stand off and use artillery to try to knock holes in the wall. The number of men needed to effectively interdict resupply is going to depend on the fortifications, not the guys manning them. I always assumed the required siege army was what was needed to invest the fortress by circumvallation, since that's the model that actually makes sense.

Assumption is the mother of all f*ups... Do you even play the game?

 

[Squirrelloid]

What you think makes sense and what the game actually does are two entirely different things. Not only that, but this system is used in other Paradox games, so the question being begged here is do YOU even play?

Every time I've sieged a fort, I've needed n x 1000 men for it to progress. And that made sense. It's not like the game has useful UI or tooltips for 99% of the rules. I don't think I've ever even thought to run a single unit out to siege a fort unless I was carpet sieging somewhere there were level 1 forts.

The only other paradox game I've played is Vicky 2, which has worse UI if anything, and have not played it much. Not sure why 'the mechanic is used in other paradox games' is a reason why I should know that.

BFTeixeira saying he's never seen anything like that (successfully sieging with less than nx1000 men) doesn't suggest 'no, it's actually based on a totally different number that only relates to that one when the fort is at full strength', but rather that he's never seen an AI sieging a fortress with less than nx1000 men. So you'll forgive me my incredulity when he says that, since you see the AI sieging forts with less than n x1000 men all the time.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

One. If the garrison size is under 1000, both the human AND the AI gets to advance a siege with one 1000 troop unit. There is no AI advantage here. The fort level is maximum garrison strength and defines the fort bonus on the roll. A recently capitulated fort will have just 100 troops, and grow its garrison every month until it reaches full size. How many soldiers you need depends how far along that recovery has progressed when you start a counter-siege.

Two. You can siege a fort with any sized army. What you can NOT do is advance a siege unless you have more troops than defenders.

Three. I believe you can stop all build progress in the province if you siege a fort with 1000 or more troops regardless of fort level.

Four. Yeah, it logs me off even after I checked "remember me?". Hopefully it's a setting we can change somewhere.

 

[BaZERGer]

Every time I've sieged a fort, I've needed n x 1000 men for it to progress. And that made sense. It's not like the game has useful UI or tooltips for 99% of the rules. I don't think I've ever even thought to run a single unit out to siege a fort unless I was carpet sieging somewhere there were level 1 forts.

Max garrison size for a fort is 1000x fort level, but newly won sieges will always start a garrison at 100, and fill up some more each month that the province isn't besieged.

 

[yerm]

Every time I've sieged a fort, I've needed n x 1000 men for it to progress. And that made sense. It's not like the game has useful UI or tooltips for 99% of the rules. I don't think I've ever even thought to run a single unit out to siege a fort unless I was carpet sieging somewhere there were level 1 forts.

The only other paradox game I've played is Vicky 2, which has worse UI if anything, and have not played it much. Not sure why 'the mechanic is used in other paradox games' is a reason why I should know that.

BFTeixeira saying he's never seen anything like that (successfully sieging with less than nx1000 men) doesn't suggest 'no, it's actually based on a totally different number that only relates to that one when the fort is at full strength', but rather that he's never seen an AI sieging a fortress with less than nx1000 men. So you'll forgive me my incredulity when he says that, since you see the AI sieging forts with less than n x1000 men all the time.

There is this little button that looks like a cannon and if you press it, you will detach only the minimum number of men needed to siege a province. It's not the best way to go, since it favors leaving multiple depleted stacks and causes stupidity once they reinforce and all of that, but it does do its job. Very effective when you're too lazy to play well. Very effective at leaving less than fort level times a thousand men when the garrison is not full.

The AI and the human player follow the exact same rules here; no AI cheating is taking place. If the garrison size is 3000, you need 3000+ to advance that siege. If the garrison is 756 total, you only need at least 756 to advance the siege, and both a human or AI could leave a single 1k infantry merc regiment and siege that exactly the same.

This isn't new at all. This isn't unique to EU4. Sieges requires more men than the garrison; if the garrison is depleted a human or AI can siege it with less than typical.

I am assuming here, but I believe when BFT says he's never seen anything like that, he means he's never seen anything like the AI cheating about sieges - they always need more men than the garrison or the siege will not progress. He does not mean that he's never seen the AI siege below fort level; I assume almost everyone has seen the AI siege a depleted garrison with lower than fort level x 1000 numbers.

 

[Squirrelloid]

There is this little button that looks like a cannon and if you press it, you will detach only the minimum number of men needed to siege a province. It's not the best way to go, since it favors leaving multiple depleted stacks and causes stupidity once they reinforce and all of that, but it does do its job. Very effective when you're too lazy to play well. Very effective at leaving less than fort level times a thousand men when the garrison is not full.

The AI and the human player follow the exact same rules here; no AI cheating is taking place. If the garrison size is 3000, you need 3000+ to advance that siege. If the garrison is 756 total, you only need at least 756 to advance the siege, and both a human or AI could leave a single 1k infantry merc regiment and siege that exactly the same.

This isn't new at all. This isn't unique to EU4. Sieges requires more men than the garrison; if the garrison is depleted a human or AI can siege it with less than typical.

I am assuming here, but I believe when BFT says he's never seen anything like that, he means he's never seen anything like the AI cheating about sieges - they always need more men than the garrison or the siege will not progress. He does not mean that he's never seen the AI siege below fort level; I assume almost everyone has seen the AI siege a depleted garrison with lower than fort level x 1000 numbers.

The detach-siege-force button always detaches too many units after cannon because it's not counting the cannon regiment's men, so I've pretty much stopped using it. (Excepting only when I need to quickly send an army after theirs, and want to leave behind a siege unit briefly, with the intention of coming back and rejoining it to the army). Which also means that it's not actually very effective at leaving less than nx1000 men unless the fort is level 3+ and significantly low on men.

And if I find myself sieging a fortress that's sub-1000 men, i generally just assault it and move on. Near-zero casualties for most field armies, even without breaking the walls.