Could the 1909 Ottoman Countercoup have succeeded?

[fredinno]

For people who have no idea what I'm talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_countercoup_of_1909

" The Sultan maintained his symbolic position and in March 1909 attempted to seize power once more by stirring up populist sentiment throughout the Empire. The Sultan's bid for a return to power gained traction when he promised to restore the caliphate, eliminate secular policies, and restore the sharia-based legal system. The 1908 parliament lacked coherence, most of all on the nature and unity of the organization of the Empire. While the Young Turk Revolution had promised organizational improvement, once instituted, the government at first proved itself rather disorganized and ineffectual. "

I would assume this would prevent the Ottomans from joining WW1, and imprison TYT.

 

[Czert]

well, if you look at latest erogans actions, this coup succeded nearly 110 years later.

 

[JodelDiplom]

For people who have no idea what I'm talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_countercoup_of_1909

" The Sultan maintained his symbolic position and in March 1909 attempted to seize power once more by stirring up populist sentiment throughout the Empire. The Sultan's bid for a return to power gained traction when he promised to restore the caliphate, eliminate secular policies, and restore the sharia-based legal system. The 1908 parliament lacked coherence, most of all on the nature and unity of the organization of the Empire. While the Young Turk Revolution had promised organizational improvement, once instituted, the government at first proved itself rather disorganized and ineffectual. "

I would assume this would prevent the Ottomans from joining WW1, and imprison TYT.

Wouldn't the debacles to come (1911ff.) cause the Sultan to lose power again? Surely the blame for any setbacks in the Balkans and elsewhere would be placed at his feet.

 

[fredinno]

Wouldn't the debacles to come (1911ff.) cause the Sultan to lose power again? Surely the blame for any setbacks in the Balkans and elsewhere would be placed at his feet.

TYT didn't lose power because of the Balkan War (though its reputation and internal structure was damaged).

I don't see why TYT survived the 1st Balkan War, and Italo-Turkish war, but not the Sultan. The Sultan was trying to be populist in the Coup, after all. You'd think he'd have a bit more elbow room than TYT.


Also, I got an infraction for referring to Turks as Kebab.

 

[JodelDiplom]

TYT didn't lose power because of the Balkan War (though its reputation and internal structure was damaged).

I don't see why TYT survived the 1st Balkan War, and Italo-Turkish war, but not the Sultan. The Sultan was trying to be populist in the Coup, after all. You'd think he'd have a bit more elbow room than TYT.

The young turks had an engaging vision for the empire. The sultan did not. The young turks were also a bunch of charismatic, energetic men with administrative experience. The sultan didn't have energy or charisma and was the offspring of a dynasty long past its apex. Hence people (those that mattered anyways) had more faith in the young turks than they would have had in the sultan. Yes the sultan might have been more respected among villagers, pious men and rural folk than some uniform wearing guys with no famous ancestors and a reputation for doing unislamic things. But their opinions didn't matter in the Ottoman empire.

Also, I got an infraction for referring to Turks as Kebab.

Yeah don't do that, it's a bannable offense.

 

[fredinno]

The young turks had an engaging vision for the empire. The sultan did not. The young turks were also a bunch of charismatic, energetic men with administrative experience. The sultan didn't have energy or charisma and was the offspring of a dynasty long past its apex. Hence people (those that mattered anyways) had more faith in the young turks than they would have had in the sultan. Yes the sultan might have been more respected among villagers, pious men and rural folk than some uniform wearing guys with no famous ancestors and a reputation for doing unislamic things. But their opinions didn't matter in the Ottoman empire.

So the Sultan was doomed from the start?

 

[JodelDiplom]

So the Sultan was doomed from the start?

Pretty much yes

 

[fredinno]

Didn't the Sultan want to reestablish Islamic rule, and encourage unity via Pan-Islamism?

He had enough supporters that there was a major purge in the Ottoman leadership- which contributed the to failure of the Balkan Wars.

TYT was also directly responsible for the failure of the Turkish Army due to the leadership of Enver Pasha- who, BTW, also got the Turks into WW1.

I think the choice between the two was a lot closer than you think...

 

[JodelDiplom]

Didn't the Sultan want to reestablish Islamic rule, and encourage unity via Pan-Islamism?

He had enough supporters that there was a major purge in the Ottoman leadership- which contributed the to failure of the Balkan Wars.

TYT was also directly responsible for the failure of the Turkish Army due to the leadership of Enver Pasha- who, BTW, also got the Turks into WW1.

I think the choice between the two was a lot closer than you think...

Islamic rule and Pan-islamism were medieval concepts which were not going to make the sultans subjects fight for him with anything near the zeal that nationalism could (and would) rouse.

As for the defeats brought on by Enver Pasha - that is hindsight.