Could someone describe the UK's evolution in becomeing democratic?

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krieger11b

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I am not finding a good resource on how parliament evolved from what seems like a group of ministers appointed by the Kind of England (before the Unions), to how they are voted for today. When the Prime Minister went from being the King's appointed representative in Parliament to being totally (in practical terms) out of the monarchs control, and the choice of the Parliament itself. Although they do report directly to the Monarch the status of Parliament.

Magna Carta did reduce the King's power a bit, but just to give more power to the nobles, not really democratic. So I don't really count that.
 

icedt729

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I only have a pretty hazy concept of it myself. It seems to mostly boil down to a struggle between the landholders who collected most taxes and the king who wanted to maximize his revenue from them, with other marginal groups trying to elbow their way in whenever possible. Seems very difficult to track because of how much the practice could vary under individual monarchs up until at least the Civil War.
 

stevieji

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It's a very long story. You have the reduction in the power of the monarchy - Magna Carta, the Civil War, the Glorious Revolution, the Bill of Rights - and then you have the gradual expansion of the franchise - from Barons, to landed gentry, through various Reform Acts, women's suffrage etc. One person, one vote is a very recent development.
 

krieger11b

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It's a very long story. You have the reduction in the power of the monarchy - Magna Carta, the Civil War, the Glorious Revolution, the Bill of Rights - and then you have the gradual expansion of the franchise - from Barons, to landed gentry, through various Reform Acts, women's suffrage etc. One person, one vote is a very recent development.
The US was similar in the beginning at least with just land owning white males able to vote. Kind of takes the wind out of the whole freedom for all propaganda we hear. As a retired Drug Enforcement Agency agent asked me when did the US citizen first have rights and he said Lyndon Johnson because before that the government did whatever the hell they wanted.
 

stevieji

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The US was similar in the beginning at least with just land owning white males able to vote. Kind of takes the wind out of the whole freedom for all propaganda we hear. As a retired Drug Enforcement Agency agent asked me when did the US citizen first have rights and he said Lyndon Johnson because before that the government did whatever the hell they wanted.
You might find this interesting ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_and_pocket_boroughs
... as a kind of snapshot of how things were, as recently as the 19th century. It has links to related areas you can follow.

There was a long and difficult struggle for the rights which are now considered normal. This might be of interest, in the context of parliamentary reform ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
 

icedt729

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Well on the note of the whole "propertied class" thing, to early Americans' credit they were pretty serious about getting as many people landed as possible. Land in the territories was cut into freehold-sized parcels and sold off at low cost or even given out by lottery, so at least outside of the slavery belt the ideal was more like a Greco-Roman voting yeomanry than a feudal society run by landlords.
 

joak

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Well on the note of the whole "propertied class" thing, to early Americans' credit they were pretty serious about getting as many people landed as possible. Land in the territories was cut into freehold-sized parcels and sold off at low cost or even given out by lottery, so at least outside of the slavery belt the ideal was more like a Greco-Roman voting yeomanry than a feudal society run by landlords.

"Universal" suffrage (ie, white males, but with no property requirements) had really taken root by the 1830s. AFAIK the process you described was mostly post-Homestead Act, a generation later (though I'm happy to learn otherwise if I'm off base.)

The US was similar in the beginning at least with just land owning white males able to vote. Kind of takes the wind out of the whole freedom for all propaganda we hear. As a retired Drug Enforcement Agency agent asked me when did the US citizen first have rights and he said Lyndon Johnson because before that the government did whatever the hell they wanted.

The Johnson Era was the first time you could reasonably claim that nearly everyone was able to vote. It was always restrained by what voters and people with influence wanted, though, and I'd argue the government was able to do more then around Johnson's time, with the growth of bureaucracy, military and budget post-WWII.
 

Easy-Kill

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I am not finding a good resource on how parliament evolved from what seems like a group of ministers appointed by the Kind of England (before the Unions), to how they are voted for today. When the Prime Minister went from being the King's appointed representative in Parliament to being totally (in practical terms) out of the monarchs control, and the choice of the Parliament itself. Although they do report directly to the Monarch the status of Parliament.

Magna Carta did reduce the King's power a bit, but just to give more power to the nobles, not really democratic. So I don't really count that.

It is a very long, very obtuse, but ultimately a very interesting story. If you are interested, I would highly recommend Winston Churchill's 'A History of the English Speaking People'. It is a very well written study of how the English people (and democracy) evolved first in Britain and then in the Americas.

However, it is the slow erosion of the power of the Monarch and the slow rise of the power of the people and it is driven by Britain's mostly physical isolation and mix of values and caste systems that were introduced to britainn
 

Finnish Dragon

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You might find this interesting ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_and_pocket_boroughs
... as a kind of snapshot of how things were, as recently as the 19th century. It has links to related areas you can follow.

There was a long and difficult struggle for the rights which are now considered normal. This might be of interest, in the context of parliamentary reform ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

Mentioning those rotten boroughs was a very good idea. Let´s take some quotes from that Wikipedia article:

Each of these ancient boroughs elected two members to the House of Commons. By the time of the 1831 general election, out of 406 elected members, 152 were chosen by fewer than one hundred voters each, and 88 by fewer than fifty voters.[1]

For example, the town of Manchester, which expanded rapidly during the Industrial Revolution from a small settlement into a large city, prior to 1832 was merely part of the larger county constituency of Lancashire and did not elect its own MPs to represent its own particular and special interests.

Before 1830s in Britain it was possible to buy your seat at the Parliament if you or one of your friends had a rotten borough in his pocket. At the same time, the new industrial cities or large colonies (like the Thirteen Colonies with about 2.5 million inhabitants) had no seats at the Parliament.
 

imperium3

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I am not finding a good resource on how parliament evolved from what seems like a group of ministers appointed by the Kind of England (before the Unions), to how they are voted for today. When the Prime Minister went from being the King's appointed representative in Parliament to being totally (in practical terms) out of the monarchs control, and the choice of the Parliament itself. Although they do report directly to the Monarch the status of Parliament.

Magna Carta did reduce the King's power a bit, but just to give more power to the nobles, not really democratic. So I don't really count that.

The thing is that there weren't many really seismic moments of change, but a gradual process as some offices and institutions gained power and others lost it according to the political currents of the time. Most of the really old offices that used to hold significant power, like the Lord Chamberlain, still exist, albeit with only ceremonial roles.

Originally, the king had the central power and was advised by a group of ministers appointed by him (the Privy Council), but the king's power was counterbalanced by the demands of barons and other local interests. Magna Carta stipulated that the king could not raise taxes without the consent of his subjects, and in following years this was formalised into the system of "Parliament" - loosely based on that used by Simon de Montford's rebel barons in 1265. The first such Parliament was the Model Parliament convened by Edward I in 1295. These were ad-hoc affairs, convened by the king when he needed them and dismissed when their job was don.

The early parliaments were unicameral, being composed of both the powerful lords and clergy, and two representatives elected from each major city or borough. Initially, the representatives were not always summoned - if the king just wanted advice, he might only bother to summon the Lords. While they were originally intended as a device to authorise royal taxation, they became a useful venue for the elected representatives to air local grievances and make petitions to the monarch, because unlike the lords they had few other opportunities to do so. As the number of these petitions grew, the task of dealing with them was delegated to various royal ministers in order not to overwhelm the king's time.

Parliament steadily grew in power whenever there was a weak king, or one desperately short of cash. During the Hundred Years War, it split into the two Houses that we know today (though the Lords was the most powerful house), and it was firmly established that the king could not raise taxes without the consent of both Houses. The House of Commons, led by the Speaker for the House, began to impeach ministers it disapproved of, though often without success.

During the Tudor era, Parliament gradually assumed responsibility for much of the regular legislation within the kingdom, though still under the monarch's loose direction and subject to royal veto. The power of the clergy was enormously diminished after the Dissolution of the Monasteries, reducing the Lords Spiritual to the handful of bishops still present today (previously, many powerful abbots had seats in the Lords). When the Stuarts took power they clashed heavily with Parliament, as they were used to the Scottish system which as I understand it conferred much more power upon the monarch. Charles I tried to reduce Parliament back to a rubber stamp summoned only when necessary, but this precipitated the English Civil War, which after Parliament's victory massively increased its power. Under the Commonwealth, the Lords was abolished and government was vested in ministers who sat in the Commons.

The return of the monarchy reversed some of these reforms (particularly in the return of the House of Lords) but the supremacy of Parliament was now firmly established, a situation later enshrined in law under the Bill of Rights (1689) and Act of Settlement (1701). The monarchy still held final authority, but this was lost under the early Hanoverian kings (George I and George II), who spoke little English and were unfamiliar with English law and customs. George I therefore was completely reliant on his ministers to do the job of governing, in particular the powerful and ambitious Robert Walpole, who was nicknamed the "Prime Minister" due to his control of the government. Officially his role was as First Lord of the Treasury and Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the job of Prime Minister was not formally recognised in statute until 1917.

The role of prime minister continued after Walpole's resignation. They were always appointed by the monarch (they still are today) but it was quickly apparent that there was no point in the monarch trying to appoint a PM whose supporters did not have a majority in the Commons, because he could not get anything done, and so the PM was always the leader of the party that won a majority in the elections. Of course, the elections then were not very democratic, being often based on very outdated borders. Some tiny villages (Old Sarum, Dunwich) still had theirmedieval right to send their two MPs to parliament, while relatively new cities like Manchester had little representation. Ballots were not secret and usually controlled by local powerbrokers. These were dealt with over the course of the nineteenth century in a series of Great Reform Acts.

So, to answer your question more directly: the Prime Minister was never really a representative of the monarch, and at the same time he always has been and still is. But right from the start, the PM derived his power from his control of parliament (in order to pass laws) rather than the monarch's approval. Royal power over the PM has only disappeared completely under Elizabeth II. In 1916 George V mediated the downfall of Asquith and his replacement by Lloyd George (with the goal of preventing any instability during WWI), and during WWII Churchill and George VI held regular meetings to discuss the course of the war.
 
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stevieji

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Before 1830s in Britain it was possible to buy your seat at the Parliament if you or one of your friends had a rotten borough in his pocket. At the same time, the new industrial cities or large colonies (like the Thirteen Colonies with about 2.5 million inhabitants) had no seats at the Parliament.

I really should have provided a link to the Reform Act of 1832 ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832

The Colonies, of course, had other arrangements. It would not really have been practical to either rule America direct from London, or to have Colonists represented in Parliament. Speed of communications, for one thing, meant that local governance was essential - although I do take your general point about representation of the people. But I digress ... The Reform Act of 1832 was a very important advance - effectively dragging Britain out of the middle ages.
 

Imgran

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"Universal" suffrage (ie, white males, but with no property requirements) had really taken root by the 1830s. AFAIK the process you described was mostly post-Homestead Act, a generation later (though I'm happy to learn otherwise if I'm off base.)

He's still not wrong. The property restrictions were pretty low threshholds, I believe in Rhode Island you just had to be able to prove you were worth at least $20. Not exactly a pittance, but not vast sums either, and that value could be anything from a share in a ship, to a parcel of land, to actual money in the actual pocket. It was about proving that you were a stable and solvent member of the community, not that you were highborn gentry

Now that said -- that's Rhode Island, a very plutocratic state in a very plutocratic region. Wouldn't surprise me to learn that the standards of property ownership in say Virginia were much higher.
 
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Abdul Goatherd

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The Regency was a biiiiig factor. Whatever the Glorious Revolution said, William, Anne and the early Hanoverians were very much inside politics. In his long reign, George III was very interventionist - he pushed parliament back, insisted on meddling, appointing favorites, firing people he disliked, imposing ministers and minority governments of his choice. Through the 18th C., parliament's role was largely still negative, making life unworkable for the ministers to force changes of government. As the saying went, the king may appoint ministers, but parliament dismisses them. American rebels were roughly right in turning their fury on the king, rather than parliament.

It is when George III went bonkers in the early 1800s, that everything really changed. The new regent George Prince of Wales (future George IV) was interested in partying not politics. Ditto for his successor William IV, and then you get the silly girly Victoria. So it wasn't inevitable. Rest of Europe was embracing conservative absolutism in the early 19th C. It is just that the English didn't have a king actually interested in ruling. In short, the crown basically abdicated what remaining power it had after 1811 and deferred to the parliamentary majority on everything. And it stuck.
 
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Now that said -- that's Rhode Island, a very plutocratic state in a very plutocratic region. Wouldn't surprise me to learn that the standards of property ownership in say Virginia were much higher.

People dont speak up against the misdeeds of vile Rhode Island enough.
 

Yakman

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People dont speak up against the misdeeds of vile Rhode Island enough.
or the fact that it's not actually named Rhode Island...
 

Avernite

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The Regency was a biiiiig factor. Whatever the Glorious Revolution said, William, Anne and the early Hanoverians were very much inside politics. In his long reign, George III was very interventionist - he pushed parliament back, insisted on meddling, appointing favorites, firing people he disliked, imposing ministers and minority governments of his choice. Through the 18th C., parliament's role was largely still negative, making life unworkable for the ministers to force changes of government. As the saying went, the king may appoint ministers, but parliament dismisses them. American rebels were roughly right in turning their fury on the king, rather than parliament.

It is when George III went bonkers in the early 1800s, that everything really changed. The new regent George Prince of Wales (future George IV) was interested in partying not politics. Ditto for his successor William IV, and then you get the silly girly Victoria. So it wasn't inevitable. Rest of Europe was embracing conservative absolutism in the early 19th C. It is just that the English didn't have a king actually interested in ruling. In short, the crown basically abdicated what remaining power it had after 1811 and deferred to the parliamentary majority on everything. And it stuck.
While 1811 may have been a rather absolutist year (and especially the decade after was) the monarc hs who tried to hold on absolutely were losing ground from roughly 1830. 20 years is a long time overall, but not so much in the slow process of turning a monarchy constitutional and democratic.
 

icedt729

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"Universal" suffrage (ie, white males, but with no property requirements) had really taken root by the 1830s. AFAIK the process you described was mostly post-Homestead Act, a generation later (though I'm happy to learn otherwise if I'm off base.)
The Homestead Act is the best example, but there were also more localized ones, like the Georgia Land Lotteries (starting in 1805). But now that I'm looking into it more it does seem like the headright system used up to the 19th century seems to have favored landlordism and may be a reason why plantations took off in the South more so than in the North.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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While 1811 may have been a rather absolutist year (and especially the decade after was) the monarc hs who tried to hold on absolutely were losing ground from roughly 1830. 20 years is a long time overall, but not so much in the slow process of turning a monarchy constitutional and democratic.

There are ways of being constitutional and remaining undemocratic after 1830.

Napol%C3%A9on-III-Francs-Or.jpg
 
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StephenT

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imperium 3 wrote a good summary, but I have a few additions/quibbles:

Originally, the king had the central power and was advised by a group of ministers appointed by him (the Privy Council), but the king's power was counterbalanced by the demands of barons and other local interests. Magna Carta stipulated that the king could not raise taxes without the consent of his subjects, and in following years this was formalised into the system of "Parliament" - loosely based on that used by Simon de Montford's rebel barons in 1265. The first such Parliament was the Model Parliament convened by Edward I in 1295. These were ad-hoc affairs, convened by the king when he needed them and dismissed when their job was don.
The Privy Council as such was a later development - Tudor, I believe - though it grew out of the curia regis, the 'royal court', of mediaeval kings. However, saying that the king 'appointed' the curia regis is making it sound too formal. It was a gathering of his advisors, both ecclesiastic and secular,who followed him around the country and offered him help when he held court. Royal officials such as the Chamberlain, Chancellor and Treasurer would probably be included as of right, but otherwise it would be whichever magnates happened to be accompanying the king that week. The king's friends, rather than his ministers.

As for Parliament, the first recorded meeting of a Parliament that included both Lords and Commons was 26 April 1254 at Westminster, under Henry III. We know about it because King Henry was in Gascony during January of that year, so he wrote a letter to his wife asking her and his brother to make the arrangements on his behalf to send out the writs and hold elections. This letter has, unusually, survived to the present day, which is how we know about this parliament; it's possible there were earlier ones of which the records have been lost.


When the Stuarts took power they clashed heavily with Parliament, as they were used to the Scottish system which as I understand it conferred much more power upon the monarch.
The Scottish parliament, which was always unicameral, had evolved a system where a committee called the 'Lords of the Articles' exercised control over its activities, with the wider parliament usually confined to just approving laws that the Lords of the Articles put in front of them. While the LotA were sometimes able to defy the king, more usually they were under his patronage and even directly appointed by him.

Another interesting bit of trivia: in both England and Scotland, laws had been passed at the end of the Middle Ages giving the franchise to 'forty shilling freeholders' - that is, people who owned land worth at least £2 per year in rental value. (To put that in context, in order to be eligible for appointment as a Justice of the Peace or a county Sheriff in England you had to own land worth £20 per year, ten times higher. So voters were not just the gentry, but prosperous yeomen and farmers as well. )

In England, the value was never adjusted for inflation: so the amount of land you needed to own in order to vote became smaller and smaller. It's possible that the size of the electorate as a proportion of the population doubled between the 15th and 17th centuries. (In the 18th century it decreased again due to the prevalence of rotten boroughs.) In Scotland, however, it was established that in order to vote you had to own land "of old extent" — in other words, it had to have been worth 40 shillings back when the law was first passed, regardless of its current value. As land was divided by sale or inheritance the number of qualifying estates grew even smaller. In 1832, before the franchise was reformed to the same standard as England, only 4500 people in all of Scotland were eligible to vote!


The return of the monarchy reversed some of these reforms (particularly in the return of the House of Lords) but the supremacy of Parliament was now firmly established, a situation later enshrined in law under the Bill of Rights (1689) and Act of Settlement (1701). The monarchy still held final authority, but this was lost under the early Hanoverian kings
It's worth emphasising that the 1689 Bill of Rights established the precedent (repeated in the Act of Settlement) that Parliament is sovereign, and has the power to choose who will be king, and to put restrictions on the king's power. (As opposed to the king voluntarily choosing to accept limitations of his power as an act of benevolence.)