Could Poland have defeated Soviet Union in any scenarios....

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ConjurerDragon

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Don't go too far in this. Danzig is a fresh new demand just days before the invasion, to make sure Poland didn't accept! And there will be Silesia too if Poland accepted! In England the Revisionist may want to build a statue for Chamberlain too! He had tried his best to avoid war with Hitler but a few British has ruined the plan!

Let's see the actual land Hitler want:
main-qimg-423861bc4076ba3695d6533ace671898

Danzig is not a "fresh new demand a few days before the invasion". Already during the Weimar Republic (so before Hitler) german policitians wanted to revise the Versailles Treaty and get Danzig back into Germany. That became even more favoured when the Nazi party *in Danzig* won the elections in 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig#Government

You are mixing up what Germany wanted long before the war and what it tried to negotiate about, and the Molotov-Rippentrop pact that was signed due to the imminent war as Germany faced declarations of war from France and the UK and for that reason signed a pact with the Soviets despite the conflicting ideologies.
 
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DoomBunny

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In England the Revisionist may want to build a statue for Chamberlain too! He had tried his best to avoid war with Hitler but a few British has ruined the plan!

This is a common misassessment of both Chamberlain and appeasement in general.
 
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Maq

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It pretty much is. Short of a nazi victory it's hard to imagine a worse outcome.
Nazi victory against Soviet Union seems rather comfortable to me, in comparison with the real outcome.
I don't believe the Germans would enjoy their victory for long, they wouldn't be able to pacify occupied countries, and they were already doomed = at war with the U.S. By 1945, not only half, but the whole of Europe (incl. Poland) would be liberated again.

Regarding the question whether Poland had a chance to avoid its fate, I rather believe she had. Poland could avoid German occupation, but definitely at a high cost. Such an alliance would be pretty humiliating and unequal. Among others, Poland would have to participate in annihilation of Jews, and in a crusade against Soviet Union. So, it would lead to great losses in lives, anyway, and a significant moral damage. A civil unrest/war followed by German assistance=occupation would be quite likely. And in the end, Poland would fall together with Germany, and if the Russians had an opportunity, their revenge would be undoubtely severe and bloody.
 
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Arilou

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Danzig is not a "fresh new demand a few days before the invasion". Already during the Weimar Republic (so before Hitler) german policitians wanted to revise the Versailles Treaty and get Danzig back into Germany. That became even more favoured when the Nazi party *in Danzig* won the elections in 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig#Government

You are mixing up what Germany wanted long before the war and what it tried to negotiate about, and the Molotov-Rippentrop pact that was signed due to the imminent war as Germany faced declarations of war from France and the UK and for that reason signed a pact with the Soviets despite the conflicting ideologies.

Oh yes, the declaration of war they had not made yet.
 

ConjurerDragon

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pithorr

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Nazi victory against Soviet Union seems rather comfortable to me, in comparison with the real outcome.
I don't believe the Germans would enjoy their victory for long, they wouldn't be able to pacify occupied countries, and they were already doomed = at war with the U.S. By 1945, not only half, but the whole of Europe (incl. Poland) would be liberated again.

Regarding the question whether Poland had a chance to avoid its fate, I rather believe she had. Poland could avoid German occupation, but definitely at a high cost. Such an alliance would be pretty humiliating and unequal. Among others, Poland would have to participate in annihilation of Jews, and in a crusade against Soviet Union. So, it would lead to great losses in lives, anyway, and a significant moral damage. A civil unrest/war followed by German assistance=occupation would be quite likely. And in the end, Poland would fall together with Germany, and if the Russians had an opportunity, their revenge would be undoubtely severe and bloody.

Well, Hungary was not so much severe treated, being German most faithful ally to the very end. Their outcome from the WW2 was virtually the same like "first to fight" Soviet "ally" Poland actually...
I personally think the wisest solution was the Czech one: just to avoid nonsense unequal fight, still declaring fellowship with the Allies.
 

soldierpat117

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I think if it came down to a war, the western allies would surely have sent some form of an expeditionary force to assist the poles, considering that they were intending to send one to assist the finns, however it never materialized due to Norway/Sweden refusing to give military access, and the winter war ending before final preparations were made. I would also imagine Hungary would send material aid, if not also volunteers, considering they sent material during the Polish Bolshevik War, and would have sent volunteers had they not been prevented by the Czechs. Aditionally, there was the Polish-Romanian Alliance, which may have been activated in such a scenario, however it would expand the frontline, I would imagine that perhaps the Romanians would rather send volunteers.
 

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I think if it came down to a war, the western allies would surely have sent some form of an expeditionary force to assist the poles, considering that they were intending to send one to assist the finns, .


Those are joke, they didn't send force to Poland why they send forces to Finnland?! They even not declared war to the Soviet in both cases!
 

ConjurerDragon

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Those are joke, they didn't send force to Poland why they send forces to Finnland?! They even not declared war to the Soviet in both cases!

They did not declare war on the Soviets because they were already at war with Germany and could not afford another opponent at the time. Realpolitik beats good intentions that you have no way to actually make happen.
 

Okcydent

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Those are joke, they didn't send force to Poland why they send forces to Finnland?! They even not declared war to the Soviet in both cases!
This. Even the force that was meant to be sent consisted of Polish Brigade. No direct involvement. Pure British way of fighting, to the last allied soldier.
TBH, Poland fell to quick to be helped. Partially because of Allies guilt but....
There was no will on the British (and French side) even to give Poland loans for military purposes. Even after the guarantees. British agreed on September 7th when it was obvious to them that nothing can be done with this obligation.
 
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Maq

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Well, Hungary was not so much severe treated, being German most faithful ally to the very end. Their outcome from the WW2 was virtually the same like "first to fight" Soviet "ally" Poland actually...
I personally think the wisest solution was the Czech one: just to avoid nonsense unequal fight, still declaring fellowship with the Allies.
In the end, Poland was treated worse than Hungary despite being an ally. Do not underestimate the hatred between Russians and Poles, neither strategic concerns.
And as for 'Czech way', well, Czechs benefited materially, but morale damage was strong. The Czechs were not really hated neither by Germans, nor by Russians. Polish starting position was much different.
 

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Well I think Hitler was going to be happy either way.

Poland joins Axis, more troops and no need to manage Polish territory.

Poland doesn't get to still their gold, have border with the Soviets for expansion.

My query is if Poland does join then where does the Reich turn to push further claims?
 

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This. Even the force that was meant to be sent consisted of Polish Brigade. No direct involvement. Pure British way of fighting, to the last allied soldier.

Oh dear, this again.

Well I think Hitler was going to be happy either way.

Poland joins Axis, more troops and no need to manage Polish territory.

Poland doesn't get to still their gold, have border with the Soviets for expansion.

My query is if Poland does join then where does the Reich turn to push further claims?

Assuming Hitler is somehow successful in pursuing a peaceful claim on Polish territories (all of them), then remaining potential claims are Schleswig-Holstein, Eupen, Elsass-Lothringen, Luxemburg, German parts of Switzerland. Those last two being more on grounds of ethnicity than any historical claim.
 

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Well, Hungary was not so much severe treated, being German most faithful ally to the very end. Their outcome from the WW2 was virtually the same like "first to fight" Soviet "ally" Poland actually...
I personally think the wisest solution was the Czech one: just to avoid nonsense unequal fight, still declaring fellowship with the Allies.
"Most faithful ally" is a bit of a misnomer, especially after Hungary was formally occupied by Germany, at least partially due to its attempts to secure a separate peace or a change of sides. Admiral Horthy, the regent and leading figure within Hungary, and the Hungarian Parliament, were on very poor terms with Hitler from even before the war, and their acceptance into the Axis was seen as a matter of "bending, so as not to break", rather than defying Hitler openly. It was also noted how well France and England had defended Czechoslovakia and Poland (not at all), and how poorly the Czechs and Poles were being treated under German occupation. The Allies (France in particular) were openly hostile toward Austria and Hungary (to prevent any possible resurgence of the Hapsburg emperors ever again), with the Little Entente destroying any chance of uniting the region against either German or Soviet expansionism, and previous Soviet encounters had been disastrous. The only viable options were to bend to Hitler's demands just enough to avoid war with Germany, or suffer invasion and foreign occupation under the Nazis. Ultimately, Hungary still failed to do the former.

The thousands of Jews who fled Nazi occupation and ended up being admitted to Hungary were a major and ongoing sticking point with Hitler, as were the various half-way measures which Hungary enacted under intense pressure, and eventually he invaded anyway, citing the presence of "armed Jewry" in Hungary as a direct threat to Germany. By that point, Hungary was actively looking for a way out of the war, but had been rebuffed by the UK in its attempts to negotiate a separate surrender or change of sides, with the Allies demanding absolute surrender and essentially turning them over to Stalin. The final determined German defense of Budapest against the advancing Soviets may have had a lot more to do with buying time to round up and deport those refugees to Germany than with trying to preserve Hungary.

If "faithful" means fighting a common enemy to the point of complete national exhaustion, it may have more to do with a long sequence of bad experiences with the Soviets, and less to do with supporting Hitler.

For more details on the political situation leading to the war from the Hungarian angle, check out the book "Hungary, the Unwilling Satellite", by former US Ambassador to Hungary J. F. Montgomery, as seen by a "neutral" witness to the events as they unfolded.
 
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Okcydent

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My query is if Poland does join then where does the Reich turn to push further claims?
Well, the historical outcome is known in Poland as Western betrayal (this term is used mostly for '45 and less often for '39). France was formally allied with Poland, but it was rather loose partnership. Britain on the other hand had no agreements with Poland until the guarantees. They were given to either stop Hitler from declaring a war or, when the first failed, to make Poland the first target of aggression. It was supposed to buy Allies time they needed at the expense of occupation of Poland. Other goal was to get legitimate CB on Germany and to start the blockade.

But there was other possibility. Poland gives up the Danzig. Become more or less subjugated country (maybe like Czechoslovakia). Then what would Germans do? France and GB are in very weak state when compared to III Reich. Maybe the weakest ever. With time they would increase the size of their armies. They would arm themselves with the help of American industry. I think the decision to go for West is natural at this point. Of course Germans want someone to secure their back - that would be the role of Polish Army. We can be pretty sure that Allies would come to agreement with USSR. And the result? Well, maybe some people that died in this war could be otherwise displaced, provided that the USSR was beaten and Axis controls vast swathes of Land in the east. France beaten, Britain isolated on her isles, USA not ready to join and the Soviet State dismantled. If something would go wrong, well, one can always try to switch sides. This is the best alternative history according to Revisionists.
 

Maq

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Well, the historical outcome is known in Poland as Western betrayal (this term is used mostly for '45 and less often for '39). France was formally allied with Poland, but it was rather loose partnership. Britain on the other hand had no agreements with Poland until the guarantees. They were given to either stop Hitler from declaring a war or, when the first failed, to make Poland the first target of aggression. It was supposed to buy Allies time they needed at the expense of occupation of Poland. Other goal was to get legitimate CB on Germany and to start the blockade.

But there was other possibility. Poland gives up the Danzig. Become more or less subjugated country (maybe like Czechoslovakia). Then what would Germans do? France and GB are in very weak state when compared to III Reich. Maybe the weakest ever. With time they would increase the size of their armies. They would arm themselves with the help of American industry. I think the decision to go for West is natural at this point. Of course Germans want someone to secure their back - that would be the role of Polish Army. We can be pretty sure that Allies would come to agreement with USSR. And the result? Well, maybe some people that died in this war could be otherwise displaced, provided that the USSR was beaten and Axis controls vast swathes of Land in the east. France beaten, Britain isolated on her isles, USA not ready to join and the Soviet State dismantled. If something would go wrong, well, one can always try to switch sides. This is the best alternative history according to Revisionists.
I quite agree, with one important exception: I don't think Hitler would attack the West unless forced to.
Why? He knew very well that German navy was not up to the task, and therefore he had no means to defeat Britain. Attacking any western country without Britain and France getting involved was unthinkable.
In a way, he was a very sincere politician. He wrote and said multiple times that Germany's future lied in the East. And that he was willing to give up Germany's ambitions in the West and overseas (colonies).
So, in my opinion, if the West waited - and they had good reasons to wait, indeed - he would not attack in the West, but in the East, i.e. against Soviet Union. And the West would be free to (not) choose any party and get involved at will.
Polish refusal to co-operate, backed by Western guarantees, essentially destroyed Hitler's plans.
 

Brian Shanahan

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Up until that time, attitudes had been a mixed. To give some examples. Some saw Hitler as overthrowing an unjust treaty and doing little wrong internationally (Hitler's foreign policy actions up to and including Sudetenland are far more reasonable than often portrayed

I wouldn't include the Sudeten occupation as reasonable by any means. You've got to remember that Nazi Germany had been funnelling money and materiel to a fifth columnist organisation within the Sudetenland, Heinlein's Sudetendeutsche Partei, who'd been running a terrorist campaign against the Czech state and civilians for a number of years before 1938 and through Heinlein had been doing everything within their power to frustrate Czech attempts to integrate the Sudeten Germans within their state.
 

DoomBunny

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I wouldn't include the Sudeten occupation as reasonable by any means. You've got to remember that Nazi Germany had been funnelling money and materiel to a fifth columnist organisation within the Sudetenland, Heinlein's Sudetendeutsche Partei, who'd been running a terrorist campaign against the Czech state and civilians for a number of years before 1938 and through Heinlein had been doing everything within their power to frustrate Czech attempts to integrate the Sudeten Germans within their state.

The Sudeteland was ethnically German. By the logic of Versailles, it should have been given to Germany. But that's not how Versailles was really drawn out, the logic was not pure self-determination, rather it was self-determination where this can be used against Germany, and pragmatic concern where this also does not favour Germany.

Whilst German activities in the Sudetendland had certainly been extra-legal, they weren't exactly indefensible under Versailles. Morover, Hitler's earlier actions, the ones that really found some sympathetic ears (Saar, Rhineland, Austria) were perfectly defensible.