Could espionage solve the FTL problem

[Cat_Fuzz]

While Wiz has stated that he won't drop two of the three FTL types in order to fix their problems, I think it could be worth looking at an espionage system before committing to too much change with this.

Simply put - the problem with FTL right now comes with both the difficulty in anticipating fleet movements during warfare and, particularly for hyper lanes, getting blocked off from movement.

The latter won't be solved by introducing spying, but the former might. One facet of an espionage system could be when deciding to gather intelligence from another empire, you could pick one of the options you'd see in the trade window (such as a research agreement or mineral request) and essentially create a 'one-sided' deal (the mechanics of which I'd leave to better thinkers than I)

If you could then make on of these 'sensor data', then you'd be able to see a potential enemies ship details - in other words you'd know where their ships are, what type of FTL they are using and from there better anticipate how they would likely attack your civilisation.

Knowing what the potential range of enemy fleets and what type ahead of time can allow you to better fortify star systems and know the limits of where a rival empire could plot an attack.

Of course, this isn't the be all and end all of an espionage system, I still think that being able create factions in other empires to rebel or alter another's ethics would be cool, as well as captured spies being used against you for info, or to divest info from your empire would also be interesting and exist within current mechanics.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

No, not really. Warp and Hyperlanes have unlimited range, and wormholes have high range.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

The latter won't be solved by introducing spying, but the former might. One facet of an espionage system could be when deciding to gather intelligence from another empire, you could pick one of the options you'd see in the trade window (such as a research agreement or mineral request) and essentially create a 'one-sided' deal (the mechanics of which I'd leave to better thinkers than I)

Find the enemy fleet, click on it, see their current orders. It will tell you the system they are moving towards.

It doesn't give you their end goal, but you can already learn alot.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

No, not really. Warp and Hyperlanes have unlimited range, and wormholes have high range.

Warp has a limited range. You can go anywhere within this range but you have to navigate multiple systems to get somewhere. If you knew the range before they approach sensor range than your at an advantage. Hyper lanes have a range of one system per jump (though admittedly you can learn tech to figure out what lanes lead into / out of your borders)

Find the enemy fleet, click on it, see their current orders. It will tell you the system they are moving towards.

It doesn't give you their end goal, but you can already learn alot.

m

This is fiddly, at least if you had a visual representation you could ascertain more info. You would see how far away a fleet is, what ship range it had (so you can deduce what star systems it needs to travel to to get to you in the case of warp) or where wormhole stations are located (so you can plan an attack)

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The number of possible warp routes is so large as to render any intelligence as to their range meaningless.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

Didn't Wiz say that they are never going to add espionage because it didn't fit with the space theme or something?

 

[HrPeanut]

Didn't Wiz say that they are never going to add espionage because it didn't fit with the space theme or something?

They will add it at some point. Yesterday Wiz did an AMA on reddit. He was asked the following question:

Do you have any plans regarding espionage in Stellaris? It is a bit hard to go to war without good intel on what enemy is actually capable of.
​

And Wiz answered:

Yes, absolutely. As I've said before, espionage is something we will definitely add at some point, but I want to make it a good espionage system that builds on existing features in the game. Adding espionage just to check a box is why so many games have lackluster espionage systems, and is something I want to avoid.​

 

[jdrou]

The number of possible warp routes is so large as to render any intelligence as to their range meaningless.

The big limitation is that level 1 warp often (always?) can't cross the space between spiral arms because it's too far. Level 1 wormhole can also sometimes be tricky to find a good spot for a wormhole station that will let you cross to the next arm.

 

[Drowe]

I don't really see why not being able to anticipate fleet movements is a bad thing and should be fixed. But I like the idea of making something like that possible through espionage anyway.

FTL types aren't quite balanced right now, as Hyperlanes are somewhat inferior to the alternatives right now. A possible solution would be to introduce a way to slow down incoming fleets using wormholes or warp, giving the defenders more time to react. Could be a spaceport module or a planetary building, possibly even an aura for military stations.

 

[Sinister2202]

Simply put - the problem with FTL right now comes with both the difficulty in anticipating fleet movements during warfare and, particularly for hyper lanes, getting blocked off from movement.

I guess that's the difficulties of war in space. It would be difficult to tell in vastness of space, where a fleet might go. But capturing enemy through espionage could provide for coordinates..etc, but how that could be implemented at the scale of Stellaris is the real question. Even if it can be implemented in some way, it merely takes days for fleets to move from one system to another. I wonder, is it really worth seeing notifications over the movement of a fleet to a mere distance of a neighboring system? Clicking enemy fleets in sensor range already tells you where its next destination is. The solution to the limitation of FTL (after pre-FTL) is evolving to advanced FTL to amend the problem your empire is facing, in exchange for the crisis as a cost. The game already has the solution to the FTL problem.

I took down the Unbidden when they occupied only a single system; I was able to quickly mobilize the fleet there thanks to the jump drive, and defeat them. And I was finally free from the limitation of primitive FTL technologies such as warp, hyperspace, and wormhole. With only a click on a enemy fleet causing trouble, my fleets can rapidly respond and intercept effectively. But all of this is really up to you, to evolve your FTL methods or not. I personally don't want the developers to hand all the solutions to me, over a problem that can be solved in the game currently.

 

[Qoff]

I love warp, however the cooldown kills it for me, I only play wormhole because the other 2 kinds of FTL are just too weaker in comparison.

 

[Aurelius789]

I kind of dont get people's obession with espionage. I dont think we would get anything usefull from espionage. You already know almost everything about anyone who you have vision on and in most games espionage is somewhat boring mechanic anyway.
Maybe later when they add more core mechanics vital for gameplay.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I kind of dont get people's obession with espionage. I dont think we would get anything usefull from espionage. You already know almost everything about anyone who you have vision on and in most games espionage is somewhat boring mechanic anyway.
Maybe later when they add more core mechanics vital for gameplay.

I think for many espionage offers pacifist empires the ability to play aggressively without resorting to physical combat. You can effectively destroy the enemy from within, or at least manipulate events in your favour.

I guess that's the difficulties of war in space. It would be difficult to tell in vastness of space, where a fleet might go. But capturing enemy through espionage could provide for coordinates..etc, but how that could be implemented at the scale of Stellaris is the real question. Even if it can be implemented in some way, it merely takes days for fleets to move from one system to another. I wonder, is it really worth seeing notifications over the movement of a fleet to a mere distance of a neighboring system? Clicking enemy fleets in sensor range already tells you where its next destination is. The solution to the limitation of FTL (after pre-FTL) is evolving to advanced FTL to amend the problem your empire is facing, in exchange for the crisis as a cost. The game already has the solution to the FTL problem.

I think being able to learn new FTL types as you go would be a great addition. I also understand that you can determine movement based on sensor range, but especially in the early / mid game sensor range gives you enough time to start moving your fleets to where they will already be attacking.

If you had more advanced notice, as well as info on ship type, their weaponry etc. You can anticipate their movements in advance, as well as what type of ship to bring for optimal results, or whether you're going to be ambushed by wormhole stations and where best to go to wipe out their nose of transportation.

I don't understand why people don't get this?

 

[Drowe]

I kind of dont get people's obession with espionage. I dont think we would get anything usefull from espionage. You already know almost everything about anyone who you have vision on and in most games espionage is somewhat boring mechanic anyway.
Maybe later when they add more core mechanics vital for gameplay.

Because espionage offers a lot of potential benefits and additional depth. Why should you know how strong your hostile neighbour is or where his colonies are? Wouldn't it be interesting to know what kind of FTL system other empires are using, or which weapon systems? What about stealing technologies or sabotaging research? It opens up so many options.

 

[JMensch]

Because espionage offers a lot of potential benefits and additional depth. Why should you know how strong your hostile neighbour is or where his colonies are? Wouldn't it be interesting to know what kind of FTL system other empires are using, or which weapon systems? What about stealing technologies or sabotaging research? It opens up so many options.

You can already know weapons and ftl type as soon as you get vision on ships. And its not like the AI builds drastically different ships anyway.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Would it help if you could see wormholes that are in the process of forming on the galaxy map? Say if you have sight range on either end of the wormhole, a line is drawn on the galactic map from source to destination, while the wormhole is powering up.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Would it help if you could see wormholes that are in the process of forming on the galaxy map? Say if you have sight range on either end of the wormhole, a line is drawn on the galactic map from source to destination, while the wormhole is powering up.

Something like this could also work well

 

[Alblaka]

No. You can already tell pretty precisely where enemy fleets are if you got any form of sensor coverage, and with 1.5 we get sensor arrays.
Therefore, unless Espionage gives you control over which FTL types enemy empires can use (hahaha, no), the answer to your question is no.

 

[LastLeviathan]

No, because it's not the lack of knowledge of the enemy's FTL but rather a lack of ability to counter it. Hyperlanes you can create chokepoints but the other two can come from almost anywhere and go almost anywhere. Makes it difficult to create any defensive strategy, especially if you're fighting multiple enemies and each have different FTLs.

 

[Drowe]

You can already know weapons and ftl type as soon as you get vision on ships. And its not like the AI builds drastically different ships anyway.

I know that, but I don't think you should be able to know those things without espionage. Especially in multiplayer matches, espionage would give a lot of options to make the game more interesting.