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Cossack Hetmantate, Halych-Volhynia, and Ruthenia

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panther-anthro said:
Matty, Ruthenia most likely 'should' be named White Ruthenia instead, I forgot the exact historical reasoning, but there was something I read in regards to why it would be White Ruthenia, they used it in a different mod.
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Ruthenian lands used to be divided by colours, even though I did not find any specific reason behind this idea. For example, territories of Halych-Volynia used to be called "Red Ruthenia" (Ruś Czerwona in Polish, Chervona Rus in Ukrainian). The territories of present-day Belarus have been divided into White and Black Ruthenias. So I guess theres no reason to change the name.

As of the Cossacks... Well, IIRC, the term has been in use since the end of the XV century. But, since the Cossack Hetmanate is though to be a kind of a Ruthenian Horde (at least that's the impression I got from reading it's historical background), I guess it's acceptable. Still, that does not justify the use of "hetman" title. Historically, the title came to Ukraine (which is also a term invented post 1419) from Poland, and since we have no Poland in Ruthenia in INT... Perhaps some Mongol title (Bey?) should be translated to Ruthenian and used instead?
 
Wikipedia, which is a flawed but nonetheless intriguing resource, has this to say on the Red and White Ruthenian issue.

"Ethnographers explain that the term was applied from the old-Slavonic use of colours for the cardinal points on the compass. The ancient totem-god Svitovyd had four faces. The northern face of this totem was white (hence Byelorus), the western face red (hence Chervona Rus'), the southern black and the eastern green (hence Zelenyj klyn). This makes the placement of Black Ruthenia problematic.

Some Ukrainian historians dispute the validity of the prefix "Red", considering it an unhistorical invention of Polish nationalism aiming at dividing Ruthenia"

Accordingly, I think we don't want to buy into it. Plus, if you are building a unifyinf empire, the last thing you want to do it suggest that you are only "Ruthenia of the West" and limit your claims.

Bey is a Turkish term, not one in use within the Mongol horde, so we'd have to find another word, but you are right that Hetman is inappropriate.

How about Ulus?

Or kniazivstvo?
 
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Well, it's true that bey is a Turkish term. But as the Golden Horde adapted islam, a great deal of Turkish influence came with it, IIRC. The Cossack Ulus... Sounds nice ;) Wikipedia mentions a Turkish word Qazaq or Qazaqlar. Since the Cossacks are likely to either form Ruthenia or the Republic of Ukraine, I guess we can use it ;)

Interesting note about compass colours. It seems to be some steppe habit, since I remember simmilar systems used by the Mongols and the Chinese.

And I realise Wikipedia is flawed, but at 11.19PM I have little patience to look through Bazylow's History of Russia or Krawczuk's History of Ukraine :p
 
So, Ulus for the country and Qazaq for the monarch is that your preference?
 
I guess they'll fit better than Cossack Hetmanate... I've only recently started my Russian Studies, so I'm no expert.

My proposition is: Qazaq Usul as country and to rename Cossack Council to Qazaq Council. In most of my games I see Cossacks changing into either Ukraine or Ruthenia, so I guess it'd be fine.

But you're the boss, MattyG. ;)
 
Jedrek said:
I guess they'll fit better than Cossack Hetmanate... I've only recently started my Russian Studies, so I'm no expert.

My proposition is: Qazaq Usul as country and to rename Cossack Council to Qazaq Council. In most of my games I see Cossacks changing into either Ukraine or Ruthenia, so I guess it'd be fine.

But you're the boss, MattyG. ;)
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Are you sure that Qazaq is not simply an alternative spelling for the Kazaks?
 
How will you explain the etymology of "Hetmanate" in INT world, then? ;)
 
Hm... I don't like the event giving Kiev to Halych when the Cossacks attack the former capital of Rus. I don't know what's the exact reason behind the existance of a catholic Halych (a neophite Rurikovich or an ecclesial union?), but I think that it should be quite opposite - if catholic Halych attacks Kiev (which can be justified, as without Moscow or any other unifying force in the North, the Rurikovichs would most likely keep fighting over the city), then the Cossacks (or Smolensk, or any ther neighbouring Orthodox state) should intervene to protect Kiev from the Roman Catholic "crusades".
 
I see your point. But I was quite surprised to see an orthodox Kiev willingly submiting to Halych instead of remaining in orthodox sphere of influence. In OTL, the Cossacks often acted as defenders of the Orthodoxy, especially after the annexation of Ukraine by Poland in 1569.

The only possible explanation is that "Lex Halicia" (I've got to read the historical background more carefully...) introduced some kind of ecclesial union, which brought at least some orthodox bishops under the jurisdiction of the Pope. In such a case, assuming that Kiev also came under western influence (but did not adapt a simmilar union), I can imagine that the kievans would prefer Halych rule to the Cossack one.

Did I make myself clear enough? ;) I think I got a mild cold and I'm a bit confused today...
 
You have pretty much grasped the historical and faux-historical backgrounds there.

Historically, H-V converted to Catholicism (at least, the ruling house did, with the expectation that others follow) and was rewarded with the title "king" by the Pope.

In order to survive religious difference I conceived of the Lex Halicia, as an updated version of it's existing legal codes, which appear to have been quite advanced for the period.

This included acceptance of Jewish synagogues and Orthodox churches/hierarchy.

The Kiev thing is partly that orthodoxy is accepted within a Lex-oriented H-V but also a political reality that if the Coassacks attack, join the other side.

Maybe they could join Smolensk instead?
 
Mhm, I understand now :)

I'm planning to create an event chain that would give Smolensk a chance to take Kiev. But that's only plans. Don't worry, I'll keep you updated. :)
 
I definitely need to update the H-V Kiev 'inheritence' event to ensure that they still have the Lex Halicia active, or to at least have Orthodox as the religion.

The main reason for the event (as with that for the Cossack state) is because taking the single-province, wealthy Kiev is such a no-brainer that there needs to be a disincentive. Otherwise Kiev is a OPM that gets gobbled by 1420 in every game.
 
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