Corruption system be fixed or is it going to stay forever?

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kontinos

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Would it be too harsh to ask you to pick up the phone in the call centre so i could get some answers regarding my product?

Nevermind, jokes aside, as much as Europeans are responsible for the rest of the world's suppression, you can't deny that they contributed a lot to civilization, if you were a little bit willing to disregard your complexes against the west and had a look at the way how states in your region got things going, it won't be much different in comparison to how politics worked in a global scale.
 
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kontinos

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Even from the era of the city-states it was always a game of live or die, supress or be supressed, be dominant or not, a whole history of wars and such. It just happened that Europe was more efficient, i guess due to the powder technology breakthrough at this time.
 
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Mad Indian

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In addition to the example-specific refutation above, i think you've got the causality backwards. It was because they were technologically advanced that they were the ones who ended up on top. Without that, the looting wouldn't have been possible. If China or India or anywhere else had been the ones to become so technologically dominant that they could compel most of the world to submit, they would have. (And in this particular case, those technologies also made it easier to traverse the globe and project force thousands of miles away.)

First, I'm not denying that colonial acts were frequently violent and amounted to looting. Of course they were.

Second, Europe wasn't special in this regard. The expansion of Islam, the Mongol conquests, the Ottoman Empire and the Mughals - all were basically stronger societies destroying weaker ones, looting their wealth for the conquerors, and putting the conquered people to work for them. Yeah, sometimes spreading religion was also a goal - the European colonizers claimed and believed they were civilizing and converting "savages" too - that doesn't mean they weren't also looting. (And converting "heathens" by the sword is *at least* as violent as looting).

Third, the reason why it was Europe who looted the world, and not China or the Ottomans or some other group was because of technological superiority driven by those cultures of freedom I talked about. They unbound the pace of technological advancement, and that made them capable of dominating the world with a mere fraction of its population. (Industrialization and capitalism are the only social systems which have increased per capita GDP in the history of the world, and are intimately tied to the pace of technological advancement AND adoption by society).

So those world-renowned monuments that you claim were being raised - they were being raised for political elites on the backs of slaves or near slaves from their own societies. Local elites were looting their own societies - as has been done since the dawn of human civilization.

Fourth, yes, it feels weird to talk about cultures of freedom while those same cultures are looting and sometimes enslaving people worldwide. Societies have always divided those it considers members of itself from outsiders. It is only in extremely modern times that we've started to consider all humans worthy of dignity, and although you can find strands of such thought in literature going back centuries, that doesn't make it common belief that would drive the action of societies. So anyway, these nations had cultures of freedom domestically, while they exported violence because they were technologically superior and could. I would note that those same cultures of freedom are the ones that ended the colonial regimes - resistance abroad and at home were driven by the colonizers own cultural ideas and lofty ideals.

Churchill is a case in point. He believed only in Democracy for Britons, his societal group, and advocated monstrous measures against colonized peoples who resisted (including the Irish). And yet, the principles he believed in for his own people were ultimately turned against him and used to argue for freedom for the colonized. "This, in turn, led to the great irony of Churchill's life. In resisting the Nazis, he produced some of the richest prose-poetry in defence of freedom and democracy ever written. It was a cheque he didn't want black or Asian people to cash – but they refused to accept that the Bank of Justice was empty. As the Ghanaian nationalist Kwame Nkrumah wrote: "All the fair, brave words spoken about freedom that had been broadcast to the four corners of the earth took seed and grew where they had not been intended." Churchill lived to see democrats across Britain's dominions and colonies – from nationalist leader Aung San in Burma to Jawarlal Nehru in India – use his own intoxicating words against him." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html

Those same cultures of freedom are the only reasons we don't have a world of colonial empires today, because the people who lived those cultures came to believe those ideals were meant for everyone, not just their neighbors.

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It's hard to avoid talking about how the game can better adhere to history if we can't discuss the history we're trying to adhere to.
Ottomans or mongols aren't the ones who are claiming how great they were in history now.

The monuments i speak about came from a society without inciting any peasant revolts unlike europe, which even in 1800s saw french revolutions and other forms of slave atrocity. You can coveniently name the slaves of your society as peasants or serfs but that just would be disingenuous .not every society had a pathetic slave society like europe. Hell you people celebrate Athens and it's democracy as if it's a pinnacle of glory despite the fact that it was built on a slave society and hence i can understand where this double think comes from

Hell even the caste system was way better off in india than anything Europeans had at the time. In india, the lowest of the lower castes were actually subsidised by the state for the services they did for other castes(which were stopped by British barbarians ,who diverted that subsidies into their texts and caused millions of lower castes to starve to death in india). The lower castes and shudras actually enjoyed a better wealth compared to high caste brahmins of their time. The warrior castes fought, brahmins taught , and vaisyas traded while the shudras were the landlords and tillers. The monuments were worked by artisans, and the lowest caste in india at the time weren't artisans. So no, you equating indian monuments to slaves is just disingenuous and false.

And what superiority of tech are you talking about? None of the advances in science before steam revolution actually came from the Europeans or European continent first, with the possible exception of may be colonisation and loot. Even there, mongols beat you guys to it. Astronomy and math came from india,printing press , gun powder etc came from china, iron working originated in Syria. Even the religion Europeans follow did not originate in in Europe.

Btw, you know why comparisons to mughala or mongols or Ottomans is spurious? Ottomans din't loot the areas they conquered to enrich their pocketss like colonisers did. Ottomans, mongols, mughala viewed their conquered lands as their subjects. The colonisers on the other hand, outright genocided them with small pox as in south america and mexico, where the Spanish, god fearing, superior civilisation of great humanity, bearing, guardians dipped blankets filled with small pox to eradicate the natives. But in case of asian countries and africa, they treated natives like slaves who should be exploited for their "own people". That is, unlike Ottomans and mughala, the natives were never seen as their subjects by the colonisers

Calling Westerners a Superior civilisation of the period is like calling Nazis a superior civilisation Of their period just because the Nazis ROFL stomped the french and would have taken over Brtain if Britain wasn't hiding behind the english channel. Just like how mongols conquering china at their time doesn't make mongols a better civilisation not a more technologically advanced civilisation compared to china.

Western barbarity and loot is what caused their "superiority". But it is being white washed as being because of institutes and enlightenment today. pretty hilarious to us outsiders to be honest .

Regarding Nehru , he was a small figure in actual freedom movement. British left because if they had stayed it would have been a blood bath. The actual credit for anti colonial drive in 20th century goes to Nazis for breaking British and other colonial empire's back to the point that none of them were powerful enough to hold on to their colonies anymore and Soviet Union for their support to communist guerillas in the colonies against the western humanitarian, superior , saviors civilisation who colonised them. Like how the post WW2 french got butt kicked in IndoChina with Soviet help
 
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Mad Indian

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Even from the era of the city-states it was always a game of live or die, supress or be supressed, be dominant or not, a whole history of wars and such. It just happened that Europe was more efficient, i guess due to the powder technology breakthrough at this time.
Lol. I din't start the "superiority" BS. Some European did. Someone needs to hold a mirror to the west to what they actually are to human race. Objectively speaking, Human race would have seen far less violence and destruction without the west. That's the ground reality. Reality checks need to be given whenever western superiority is brought up.
 
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Mad Indian

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Would it be too harsh to ask you to pick up the phone in the call centre so i could get some answers regarding my product?

Nevermind, jokes aside, as much as Europeans are responsible for the rest of the world's suppression, you can't deny that they contributed a lot to civilization, if you were a little bit willing to disregard your complexes against the west and had a look at the way how states in your region got things going, it won't be much different in comparison to how politics worked in a global scale.

You mean west contributed to the rest of the world like the way USA is bringing civilisation and culture and other bunnies, cake and love to Iraq, Libya and Syria??
 
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Even from the era of the city-states it was always a game of live or die, supress or be supressed, be dominant or not, a whole history of wars and such. It just happened that Europe was more efficient, i guess due to the powder technology breakthrough at this time.
How threatened were european societies by american natives, sub-saharan natives, asian societies?
There's a big difference between slaughter to survive, and slaughter to loot and enslave.
Why do you think that europe's golden age happened at the same time that western europe powers were draining resources and wealth from all over the world? Coincidence?
 
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YuriiH

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cake and love to Iraq, Libya and Syria??
Well, you may have never lived in a totalitarian society while blaming US for destroying those, haven't you?
You were born and lived somewhere where the Law is just and rather equal for everyone, without distinguishing those who belong to “dictator's royal family” and the others—“slaves of the dictator's royal family”, weren't you?
It is easy to blame US for interventions in anger due to inevitable destruction and deaths. People generally like to stay as slaves without any major responsibilities; and those people resist to death against any—peaceful or not—chance to get out of their slave pit.
However, try for yourself living under continuous pressure of a tyranny where you are nothing and have less to none opportunity to be called with a name, unless you belong to the “family” and treat the others as dust.
In any case, I can only feel sad for a person who enjoys such living conditions.


And to the subject.
Generally, I like an idea of corruption in the game, but I do think that numbers should still be reworked.
 
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This thread is often waaaaaay off-topic, and descending into abuse. Closing before I have to hand out infractions.
 
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