corrections in the setup for Germany in 1066 part 2

[Deserteur]

minor correction for Germany

I have some additions regarding Germany.
1. I found out, that the County of Weimar was not ruled by the Duchy of Thuringia as it is at the start of the 1066 scenario. Instead it was a free county which just had the king above it. Anyways in the 1066 scenario the province is also part of Saxony/Germany. To correct it, it should be part of Thuringia/Germany, but it should be independant, not ruled by the duchy of Thuringia.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar-Orlamünde (in German)

2. Luxembourg was part of Upper Lorraine, not Lower Lorraine in 1066. It just changed to Lower Lorraine in the 12th century.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothringen#Aufteilung_in_Ober-_und_Niederlothringen (in German)

3. Verona was part of the Duchy of Kärnten since 975 and just became independant in the 12th century. Anyways the Duke of Kärnten should not posses the title Duke of Verona.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verona

4. The Duchy of Austria did not exist in 1066, it was just formed in 1156 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Österreich#Geschichte (in German). I propose that you make it part of the Duchy of Bavaria as it historically was and reduce the current Duke of Austria to a Count of the two provinces. The county of Passau, should be a bishopric under the rule of the King of Germany.
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.d...sau_bistum.html
The bishop's name is "Altmann". His family name is unknown, he is from a family from Westfalen, but I would suppose that he is named "Altmann von Passau" as he was later known. He lived from 1015-1091.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Bayern_im_10.Jh.png (This map can be used for all additions I proposed in this area.)
It shows Passau and Austria as part of Bavaria. Kärnten and Verona splitted from it as written in the map, Verona also became part of Kärnten. Anyways just inherit the province of Verona to Kärnten, not the provinces between them as they were independant and just below the German king.

5. The Duchy of Meissen should not exist. Meissen and Lausitz were both Markgrafschaften (German word for border counties). They were both independant counties.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d...on_loewen_markgraefin_der_lausitz_+_1083.html
This site is about the wife of the Count of Meissen, who was after his death the wife of the Count of Lausitz. Both men have the title of a Markgraf (border count), not duke.

6. The province of Lausitz should have Western Slavic people, not German. They were Sorbes. They lived there in 1066 and they still live there today. So I suppose that they were the majority of the population in 1066.

7. As to the comments of Veldmaarschalk below and my research, the Duchy of Brandenburg should not exist. The current Duke of Brandenburg should be the count of a tribe and the people in the province Western Slavic and Pagan.
The rulers of Altmark and Anhalt should be switched! Anhalt to a bishopric and Altmark to a county.
In the game you used the bishops of Magdeburg for it, but Magdeburg is not in Altmark, it is in Anhalt.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordmark#St.C3.A4dte_und_wichtige_Orte_in_der_Altmark (in German)
The ruler Friedrich Goseck was ruler of Altmark (the same as Nordmark) during that time.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d...putelendorf_pfalzgraf_von_sachsen_+_1085.html

8. The county of Frisia has to be independant from Lower Lorraine as it was a Markgrafschaft (border county) directly to the King of Germany.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d.../friesland.html (in German)

9. The Count of Holland Dietrich has to be 15 years old, not 12 as he was born in 1051.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d...and_+_1091.html (in German)

10. The bishoprics of Köln, Liege and Sticht were independant from Lower Lorraine, their bishops were chosen by the German king.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d..._herzogtum.html (in German)

11. The bishopric of Mainz was also independant from Upper Lorraine for the same reason as the 3 bishoprics mentioned above.
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.d..._erzbistum.html (in German)

12. The Count of Breisgau should not be Berthold, but his older brother Hermann. Anyways Berthold got the title Duke of Kärnten later from his father. So maybe a law which institudes that the heritage is devided equally between those 2.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d...gen_+_1111.html

13. Plauen has to be renamed, because Plauen was first named in documents in the 12th century. The name should be Naumburg, because the first important place was this bishopric. Bishop in 1066 is an Eberhard von Wippra. Birthdate unknown, died 5. Mai 1079. We have to install a duchy, because there was no count in this area.
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.d...urg_+_1079.html
And this province should have Western Slavic people living in it, because Germans just settled there later in the 12th century.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/reussen_voegte_von_weida/voegte_von_weida_gera_und_plauen.html

14. /

15. The bishopric of Chur in Schweiz/Italy did not belong into the realm of the Duke of Swabia. Just in 1170 the bishopric came to Swabia, before it was independant.
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mittelalter/bistuemer/chur/chur_bistum.html

16. Another correction in the 1066 scenario would be, that the Duke of Saxony was not the current on at the beginning of the scenario Magnus, but his father Ordulf.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d.../ordulf_billung_herzog_vo_sachsen_+_1072.html

 

[Styrbiorn]

addition2: Verona was part of the Duchy of Kärnten since 975 and just became independant in the 12th century. Anyways the Duke of Kärnten should not posses the title Duke of Verona.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verona

http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d..._der_baertige_herzog_von_kaernten_+_1078.html

1061 von Kaiser HEINRICH III. [richtig: Kaiserin Agnes] mit dem Herzogtum Kärnten und der Markgrafschaft Verona belehnt.

If anything the title should go to Hermann's daddy. The map you provided for Bavaria show that the area is quite correct.

addition3: The Duchy of Austria did not exist in 1066, it was just formed in 1156 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Österreich#Geschichte (in German). I propose that you make it part of the Duchy of Bavaria as it historically was and reduce the current Duke of Austria to a Count of the two provinces. After this make the County of Passau also a part of the Duchy of Bavaria as it was historically. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Bayern_im_10.Jh.png (This map can be used for all additions I proposed in this area.)

Hmm, yes, that seems ok, although I think the East march should be a direct vassal of the king, not Bayern. Problem is that the dukal tiers have also been used to represent the Markgrafschaften, as in the case with Verona.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

If you remove the Duchy of Osterreich, then the duchy of Brandenburg and Meissen will have to be removed to as they didn't exist then yet as a duchies.

Those lands weren't even part of the kingdom of Germany yet, but was still inhabited and ruled by western slavic (Wends) heathens.

The ruler of Brandenburg in 1066 (the Staden guy) was in reality the Margrave of the Nordmark I believe.

See also this thread in the OT forum


The principality of Greater Wendia

 

[Styrbiorn]

If you remove the Duchy of Osterreich, then the duchy of Brandenburg and Meissen will have to be removed to as they didn't exist then yet as a duchies.

Yea, that's the problem, dukal tiers have been used for Margraviates too.

 

[Deserteur]

http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d..._der_baertige_herzog_von_kaernten_+_1078.html

If anything the title should go to Hermann's daddy. The map you provided for Bavaria show that the area is quite correct.


Hmm, yes, that seems ok, although I think the East march should be a direct vassal of the king, not Bayern. Problem is that the dukal tiers have also been used to represent the Markgrafschaften, as in the case with Verona.

ok thanks for your support! At first I want to say, that I am right regarding the meaning of Markgrafenschaften, they were inferior to duchies. Duchies were above Markgrafenschaften (border counties)(Graf = count). Therefore I checked the definition of Herzog (German word for Duke): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog
It says that dukes got duchies to rule over counties and sometimes also over border counties (Markgrafenschaften).

So my first conclusion:

Main topic: I am right. Weimar belongs to Thuringia/Germany, but is ruled independantly by the current count in 1066.
addition1: nobody is against it, so I am right too and it belongs to Upper Lorraine in 1066
addition2: As to the definition of Markgraf (Border Count) above, the title Duke of Verona did not exist.
addition3: The same for the Duchy of Austria. It did not exist, was a county (of 2 provinces) and was part of the Duchy of Bavaria as I said before. Please check the map for it and again this site: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_Bayerns#Das_j.C3.BCngere_baierische_Stammesherzogtum
There is a sentence which says, that the family of the Babenbergers ruled more independantly in Marcha Orientalis. Which means that they were part of Bavaria, but wanted to become more independant from it. Anyways Passau still belonged to the Duchy of Bavaria.

Final conclusion:
1. The main point of discussion here is the title of Markgraf (border count). I posted a link with a clear definition of how it is defined in Germany. If you have other definitions, then please think about them, that they are not German and that we are discussing a German matter here.
2. I will do some research on how the situation with the Markgrafschaften Meissen and Brandenburg is to be handled, but I suppose that it will be the same as with Austria.
3. Please keep in mind, that from the 12th century on the power of the Dukes was declining, so the Markgrafschaften will have the possibility to become Duchies over time.

p.s.: Please feel free to comment my suggestions with proofs for your opinions.

 

[Styrbiorn]

Well, margraves had vassals, as in the case with the Margraviate of Verona for example. In that case it's easy, since the ruler had another dukal title as well, so he can have vassals. I don't really remember the other setup, is there any other margraviates with vassals? Which in that case would spoil it for the sake of consistency.


I have much better maps of the HRE showing the margraviates as not being part of duchies. Including Österreich/Bayern. I'll try to find some e-version.

 

[Deserteur]

Well, margraves had vassals, as in the case with the Margraviate of Verona for example. In that case it's easy, since the ruler had another dukal title as well, so he can have vassals. I don't really remember the other setup, is there any other margraviates with vassals? Which in that case would spoil it for the sake of consistency.


I have much better maps of the HRE showing the margraviates as not being part of duchies. Including Österreich/Bayern. I'll try to find some e-version.

ok I have made some new additions in my first post. They also regard the situation of Brandenburg and Meissen.
As far as I have found out, the Markgrafen had no other vassals in the rank of a count. And I haven't seen any source saying that the Markgraf of Verona had vassals in that area, he just had vassals because of his title as Duke of Kärnten.

A short summary:
The Markgrafschaften (border counties) of Nordmark (in the game called Brandenburg) and Meissen were ruled by independant counts.
The Markgrafschaft of Austria was ruled by a count who was ruled by the Duke of Bavaria.
The Markgrafschaft of Verona was ruled by the Duke of Kärnten as part of his realm and as Count of Verona.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Since most territories should be part of duchies from gameplay point of view, it's reasonable to use important markgraf title in regions where there weren't dukes in CK era. Like, say, Brandenburg.

 

[Deserteur]

Since most territories should be part of duchies from gameplay point of view, it's reasonable to use important markgraf title in regions where there weren't dukes in CK era. Like, say, Brandenburg.

Well there are no big and important Markgrafschaften in CK. They are all 2 provinces or less. As I stated above Brandenburg should be ruled by a tribe not by Germany, so the rest of the provinces would just be 2, not 3. And I think that it is quite ok, even from gameplay point of view, to let a count rule 2 counties as one, compared to Holland who rule 3 as one.

 

[Deserteur]

Please check my older thread "minor corrections for Germany" first, because I have made some additions in my first post.
Ok here is what I found out:

1. The county of Frisia has to be independant from Lower Lorraine as it was a Markgrafschaft (border county) directly to the King of Germany.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/brunonen_sippe/friesland.html (in German)
2. The Count of Holland Dietrich has to be 15 years old, not 12 as he was born in 1051.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d...d_1091/dietrich_5_graf_von_holand_+_1091.html (in German)
3. The bishoprics of Köln, Liege and Sticht were independant from Lower Lorraine, their bishops were chosen by the German king.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de/nieder_lothringen/niederlothringen_herzogtum.html (in German)
4. The bishopric of Mainz was also independant from Upper Lorraine for the same reason as the 3 bishoprics mentioned above.
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mittelalter/erzbistuemer/mainz/mainz_erzbistum.html (in German)

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Starting new threads with identical subject to older is not at all practical, since it clutters up the forum. Especially when you yourself posted the earlier thread and it's still on the first page.

I'll merge this one with the older thread.

 

[Solmyr]

Well there are no big and important Markgrafschaften in CK. They are all 2 provinces or less. As I stated above Brandenburg should be ruled by a tribe not by Germany, so the rest of the provinces would just be 2, not 3. And I think that it is quite ok, even from gameplay point of view, to let a count rule 2 counties as one, compared to Holland who rule 3 as one.

The problem is that Brandenburg is a big province which includes both the German and the Slavic areas. Since pagans cannot be played, having the playable German Margrave of Nordmark there is best for gameplay IMO.

 

[Deserteur]

The problem is that Brandenburg is a big province which includes both the German and the Slavic areas. Since pagans cannot be played, having the playable German Margrave of Nordmark there is best for gameplay IMO.

Why? You give me no reason, just a statement. There will be only one duchy less to play if Brandenburg county becomes a tribe. In my eyes this is only one duchy less to play for more historical accurency.

p.s.: Sorry for the new thread, but I thought, that if I would add the new changes in my first post of my first thread, then noone who is responsible for the new patch would recognize them.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

p.s.: Sorry for the new thread, but I thought, that if I would add the new changes in my first post of my first thread, then noone who is responsible for the new patch would recognize them.

Put them in a new post instead of a new thread next time. While people probably won't notice editing of first post, they certainly notice new posts.

 

[Deserteur]

a new additions:

The county of Passau, should be a bishopric under the rule of the King of Germany.
http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mittelalter/bistuemer/passau/passau_bistum.html
The bishop's name is "Altmann". His family name is unknown, he is from a family from Westfalen, but I would suppose that he is named "Altmann von Passau" as he was later known. He lived from 1015-1091. So I have made a mistake there earlier.

The Count of Breisgau should not be Berthold, but his older brother Hermann. Anyways Berthold got the title Duke of Kärnten later from his father. So maybe a law which institudes that the heritage is devided equally between those 2.
http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.d.../berthold_2_herzog_von_zaehringen_+_1111.html

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Markgrafschaft, Markgravate, Marquisat....it's all the same thing. Marquis is indeed inferior to Duke but he is also superior to Count. Austria, Brandenburg and Meissen represent these Markgravates.

In any case regarding Western Slavs in Brandenburg and all other character corrections check the Grand Culture Mod. I am also taking corrections for characters.

 

[Deserteur]

Markgrafschaft, Markgravate, Marquisat....it's all the same thing. Marquis is indeed inferior to Duke but he is also superior to Count. Austria, Brandenburg and Meissen represent these Markgravates.

In any case regarding Western Slavs in Brandenburg and all other character corrections check the Grand Culture Mod. I am also taking corrections for characters.

As for the cultures. I know.
About the Markgrafschaft. It is not the same as in other countries! This is Germany. Markgraf (border count) and Graf (count) are equal. So easy.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Markgraf is the same as Marquis in French.

 

[Deserteur]

Markgraf is the same as Marquis in French.

Yes they have the same name. If Markgraf has the same level as a normal Graf in France, they even would have the same power. Otherwise not.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markgraf#Markgraf
Please read the definitions for Markgraf and Landgraf (normal count).

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Actually it's not, I suggest you read it more carefully. The title Marquis comes directly from German Markgraf, when the Germans conquered large parts of territory the "Emperor" assigned Markgrafs("Count of the March" litoral translation) who had much more power than a normal count. The title was later introduced in France and England and so the title Marquis(Markgraf) entered into English and French nobility as additional tier as well.

Brandenburg, Meissen and Austria are primes examples of this in 1066 scenario...since we don't have Marquis/Markgraf title in CK the title of Duke is used for them.