I really wonder what the Athenian or the Spartan peoples would say to that?
Regards,
Keoland
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I really wonder what the Athenian or the Spartan peoples would say to that?
Regards,
Keoland
Race or people
State
In the begiining there were no states. The first states were we know that the inhabitants recognised themselves as citizens were the Greek citystates like Athen and Sparta. The subjects in the ancient empires or in the medival kingdoms recognised themselves as inhabitants i an village, parish or may be a province. Tribesmen like Scandinavians and Slavs might have had their identification to the very close society like village or a neighbourhood of villages.
Language
The linguistic difference between the four Scandinavian languages
(Danish, Gutniska, Norwegian and Swedish) was almost non in the 9th century. Language separation begun with the written language in 11th century. Of course there were diffent dialects but the language was one. The main reason to the separation was political. If you are a native Scandinavian you hear that the border dialects closes together even to day.
"Race" what is a race?
That is something biologic and if you make DNA analysis you will findout that all inhabitants in Europe have almost the same DNA except for Basks and Lapps.
"Culture"
There is one sharp cultural border within Europe and thats the border between eastern and western churches after 1060. The eastern part have not gone though "Renneisans", "Reformation" and "Enligtment" by reasons that take too long to explain.
Within these cultural blocks there are sub cultures like English, French, Russian etc.
State
In the begiining there were no states. The first states were we know that the inhabitants recognised themselves as citizens were the Greek citystates like Athen and Sparta. The subjects in the ancient empires or in the medival kingdoms recognised themselves as inhabitants i an village, parish or may be a province. Tribesmen like Scandinavians and Slavs might have had their identification to the very close society like village or a neighbourhood of villages.
Language
The linguistic difference between the four Scandinavian languages
(Danish, Gutniska, Norwegian and Swedish) was almost non in the 9th century. Language separation begun with the written language in 11th century. Of course there were diffent dialects but the language was one. The main reason to the separation was political. If you are a native Scandinavian you hear that the border dialects closes together even to day.
"Race" what is a race?
That is something biologic and if you make DNA analysis you will findout that all inhabitants in Europe have almost the same DNA except for Basks and Lapps.
"Culture"
There is one sharp cultural border within Europe and thats the border between eastern and western churches after 1060. The eastern part have not gone though "Renneisans", "Reformation" and "Enligtment" by reasons that take too long to explain.
Within these cultural blocks there are sub cultures like English, French, Russian etc.
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Originally posted by Keoland
I really wonder what the Athenian or the Spartan peoples would say to that?
Regards,
Keoland
They would say that they belonged to their city, which formed a state, and in larger context they spoke the same language.
Re: Race or people
Funny thing, I just remembered that swedish scientist in the 1920's used to categorize finns to the same category with mongols... Well, that was really the golden age of race, if you could say that. But in the end, all humans have the same basic genes, we are a race, the human race. The "races" that people define other people are mere differences between family members, like my brother has darker hair than I, but that does not seprate us, nor it should. Apes and monkeys are a different race. Humans cannot multiply with them. And genetical compatibility is in my opion what defines a race. If I couldn't copulate with a black woman and impregnate her, then we would be of different races. In the end, we are all in the same boat, and belong to the same human race.
Funny thing, I just remembered that swedish scientist in the 1920's used to categorize finns to the same category with mongols... Well, that was really the golden age of race, if you could say that. But in the end, all humans have the same basic genes, we are a race, the human race. The "races" that people define other people are mere differences between family members, like my brother has darker hair than I, but that does not seprate us, nor it should. Apes and monkeys are a different race. Humans cannot multiply with them. And genetical compatibility is in my opion what defines a race. If I couldn't copulate with a black woman and impregnate her, then we would be of different races. In the end, we are all in the same boat, and belong to the same human race.
Race
The matter is that humans have mixed biology and politic ideologies to a hell of a mess.
The intresting thing might be to get ansvers of from where the people of Europe went there.
And may be you get some better ideas of early stonage culutures.
The matter is that humans have mixed biology and politic ideologies to a hell of a mess.
The intresting thing might be to get ansvers of from where the people of Europe went there.
And may be you get some better ideas of early stonage culutures.
Indo-european tribes conquered europe from the predecessing tribes and nations. The celts and basques and lapps and some other minor groups survived but all the other "real europeans" vanished before the invaders. Even in finland where the language belongs to finno-ugrian language family and is related to indo-european languages only through the proto-language, the DNA is mainly germanic origin. But the hungarians that belong to the same linguistic group has totally different DNA background. Human race is pretty messy... must admit that.
Celts?
I have to correct you Mr Mojo. Celtic is an Indo-European language.
The celts came from east and invaded central Europe approx at the same time the Greeks came to Greece.
There are some areas where the invaders have been absorbed by the population. The best sample is Bulgaria where the Slaves absobed the Bulgars. But took the name of their invaders. I most cases it is the other way around.
I have to correct you Mr Mojo. Celtic is an Indo-European language.
The celts came from east and invaded central Europe approx at the same time the Greeks came to Greece.
There are some areas where the invaders have been absorbed by the population. The best sample is Bulgaria where the Slaves absobed the Bulgars. But took the name of their invaders. I most cases it is the other way around.
Re: Re: Race or people
Are you confusing races with species?
I don't know where the idea that there are no different races of humans come from, but it is patently absurd.
No way that members of different races are no more different than siblings. So people of all races have the same probability of getting brown eyes, or black hair, or blue eyes, or whatever? People from say China just happen to get dark hair, all of them? The probability of that happening, statistically speaking, is really, really, really small. Too small to care about.
Are you confusing races with species?
I don't know where the idea that there are no different races of humans come from, but it is patently absurd.
No way that members of different races are no more different than siblings. So people of all races have the same probability of getting brown eyes, or black hair, or blue eyes, or whatever? People from say China just happen to get dark hair, all of them? The probability of that happening, statistically speaking, is really, really, really small. Too small to care about.
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And since we agree that:
a) A 'state' can be something as small as a city,
b) that the greeks recognized that there were many points in common between themselves (language, religion, physical appearence*)
c) that they percieved themselves as separate from other peoples,
d) That even if divided into different states, they banded together against foreign invaders (like Persia),
e) then THAT would make a people.
(and, incidentally, this could also be what many posters think of when they talk of 'nationalism'; and it also means that 'Greeks' existed before 'Greece').
oh, and note that there were also some cultural differences between the greeks (compare oligarchical Athens to the militarized state of Sparta, for example)~.
*: If you'll note, the Macedonians were considered «barbarians» and not a Greek people because of physical differences, like the fact that many of them were blond, even if they spoke approximately the same language, worshipped the same gods and had the same culture.
And Georgians! Don't forget the Georgians! Their language is similar to Basque and they belong to the same people that once inhabited Europe.
Why does everyone always forgets the Caucasus?
Btw, that 'almost' in your sentence is usually what makes the difference...
Oh, and I subscribe 100% to what The Brain said.
Regards,
Keoland
Oh well, I have a view, that is based not on science, that all men are equal and brothers and sisters. And belong to the only race, human race. We are a one big, often unhappy family, but family altogether. This is my ideology, not scientific view. Be it absurd, be it mad, but that is what I believe in. We shouldn't pay attention to our differences, rather work together for the common good.
Oh well, I have a view, that is based not on science, that all men are equal and brothers and sisters. And belong to the only race, human race. We are a one big, often unhappy family, but family altogether. This is my ideology, not scientific view. Be it absurd, be it mad, but that is what I believe in. We shouldn't pay attention to our differences, rather work together for the common good.
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Excellent view on life. You be glad that science can support your view as well.
http://www.vacadsci.org/jsr/genomic.htm
Hannibal
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Excellent view on life. You be glad that science can support your view as well.
http://www.vacadsci.org/jsr/genomic.htm
Hannibal
*: If you'll note, the Macedonians were considered «barbarians» and not a Greek people because of physical differences, like the fact that many of them were blond, even if they spoke approximately the same language, worshipped the same gods and had the same culture.
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Who is making this claim that there not greeks?, you with your view or someone else?
Hannibal
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Who is making this claim that there not greeks?, you with your view or someone else?
Hannibal
I think keoland was referring to that fact that other greeks didn't consider macedonians as greeks at the time of the city states and before Alexander the great.
You could have saved us all some work by saying right away that you were only talking about ideology.
Surely that view about equality is strong enough to stand on its own two feet, without having to muddle the issue with outrageous claims about race? I guess I will never understand what many people find so uncomfortable with the fact that groups of people have different appearances.
If you want to discuss science, that's good. If you want to discuss ideology, that's good too. But why mix them, especially without telling anyone? One has nothing to do with the other, 'pursue the truth, no matter where it lies'.
Correct, MrMojo. I am not talking about modern greeks, who now find very 'convenient' to claim Alexander as 'one of their own'.
Regards,
Keoland
It should've been funny if some of us, would've misspelled greek as 'geek'... keolands last post would look extremely funny...IMHO
As far as I know, it was the ancient Greeks (the Athenians, Spartans, Thebans etc.) who thought, and said this-they had a very well defined and self-limited view of what a Greek was in Classical times, and language wasn't the defining point.
Whether the Macedonians weren't really regarded as Greeks because of physical differences, location, culture or political differences I'm not personally sure of, but the distinction was defininitely made.
I'm not sure what you are objecting to in this quote HB.
"Belistiche, a woman from the coast of Macedonia, won with the pair of foals ... at the hundred and twenty-ninth Olympics."
(Paus. Eleia VIII, 11 [Loeb])
"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek; so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."
(Herod. V, 22, 2)
"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery."
(Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
Extracts can be found online here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/
Keoland, help me out here....
From these i cannot reconcile that they themeselves did not think of themelves as greek, nor that other greeks thought of them otherwise.
So since only Hellenes can compete at the games its clear that they were considerd as greeks by greeks at the time.
As they are a Dorian tribe that clearly makes them greek, as the ruling house comes from greek stock that makes them greek.
Hannibal
(Paus. Eleia VIII, 11 [Loeb])
"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek; so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."
(Herod. V, 22, 2)
"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery."
(Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])
Extracts can be found online here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/
Keoland, help me out here....
From these i cannot reconcile that they themeselves did not think of themelves as greek, nor that other greeks thought of them otherwise.
So since only Hellenes can compete at the games its clear that they were considerd as greeks by greeks at the time.
As they are a Dorian tribe that clearly makes them greek, as the ruling house comes from greek stock that makes them greek.
Hannibal
Hannibal, many of the coastal cities of Macedonia were Greek colonies-hence counted as truly Greek by the "mainland"-does it say elsewhere where she was from?
The second quote actually reinforces the argument-Alexander had to prove himself an Argive to compete (descendant of Argos.) I have a vague recollection that the Ageid dynasty originated with Peloponnesian exiles.
The Macedonians did, to a great extent consider themselves Greek-but the point is the states south of Thermopylae, the heartland of ancient Greece, and in Ionia, didn't consider them as equivalent in their "Greekness". They were accounted as "barbarians". The third quote is, i believe, Alexander making a political point, and only illustrates one side of the argument.
As for the Olympic games-Nero wasn't a Hellene-power defines.
The second quote actually reinforces the argument-Alexander had to prove himself an Argive to compete (descendant of Argos.) I have a vague recollection that the Ageid dynasty originated with Peloponnesian exiles.
The Macedonians did, to a great extent consider themselves Greek-but the point is the states south of Thermopylae, the heartland of ancient Greece, and in Ionia, didn't consider them as equivalent in their "Greekness". They were accounted as "barbarians". The third quote is, i believe, Alexander making a political point, and only illustrates one side of the argument.
As for the Olympic games-Nero wasn't a Hellene-power defines.