have you considered including new "gprahic improvement project" into C.O.R.E.? It adds great pics and models...
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Spricar said:
We are working on our own graphic improvements as a part of CORE. This won't be included as a part of the initial release (or version 0.1 of you don't like the term release), but will be available as a seperate download shortly (hopefully) afterward. The primary CORE download will have minimal graphical changes to minimize the download size. MDow
the old way
Since you asked for it -
I think he ment with CORE 1 there were several beta releases "along the way" as CORE developed. Then EVERYBODY could contribute to the process since they could see how everything worked and try taking it around the block, by playing.
I know your gonna say this is not different and this is your first beta release but it does not seem the same. Personally I was shocked to see you post several weeks ago when you said - we have not begun to address events - In the old CORE EVERYTHING was in process at the same time. Your comment caught me totally by surprise since - when mods are getting close to release they usually have polished most of the product. From you comment it looked as if you had just focused on the TECHs. That would make CORE2 a "Mini Mod" which only addresses a part of the game.
If I/we had known you folks were not working on events - well, let me put it this way - WE could have done it for you during this year and you would not need to NOW address it. I assumed someone on the CORE team had already been working on it ALL YEAR LONG. Otherwise we ALL would have voulenteered for it.
Sorry for the vent - got going there - back to the point -
Anyway, what I think he means is that there is a major difference between the way this mod has been approached and the original CORE was.
Dont get me wrong -First) I appreciate the work youve done -Second) I know this is a labor of love -Third) When it does get released I'd enjoy trying it out -But If I'd have known at the beginning of the year it would be till december/and then it is just ver 0.1, I would/could have saved myself much anguish and time. My expectations (and probably everybody elses) were that this mod would progress like others do - Example the 10+ mods from Rome Total War (visit the totalwar.org to see or rometotalrealism.org), The mod "Stony Road" for HOI already in its 2.05 version and a lot of fun, and too many other mods to mention. Even the TRP/HOI mod beat you to it with what looks like less people.
At this point I expect to see comments in the main forums asking "whens the next HOI coming out", not "Our mods now ready for its 0.1 release".
Jeeze Im ranting again. Sorry. Just disappointed that with the name CORE, "Community Open Resource Exchange", I expected it to be open to almost everyone and have all of its facets (Tech, Events, Graphics, Etc ) under development at THE SAME TIME by NUMEROUS participants. Guess the title is a little misleading.
It really seems to be an issue of control. The team must do everyting. Its not like there is the entire community contributing (they would have already done the events and graphics FOR/with you). Your own comments to me sooo long ago indicated that even you only became a "member of the team" after a LOT of effort and posts/contributions. You achieved acceptance eventually. I get the feeling if you not a "Team" member you posts are not important to the "Teams" concept of where they are heading. Note - I'm implying that this mod is the "Teams" creation - NOT the Community's !
The name needs to get changed. Should/when the next HOI comes out and if another mod like this is started, please leave out the "Community" part of Core in the name.
Ive got to apologize again.
Funny, I'm fine with Stony Road/HOI and the way its developed but - it seems every time I think of the current CORE i get steamed up. My points are still relevant, but I must apoligize for my delivery and sarcasm. I'll try to stay away again. Last time I started posting it was after a couple of months of forced absence. Time to smell the roses somewhere else.
Guess at this point my post regarding accessing the Core mod forum is moot.
You are probably tired of hearing from me anyway.
baylox said:
Since you asked for it -
I think he ment with CORE 1 there were several beta releases "along the way" as CORE developed. Then EVERYBODY could contribute to the process since they could see how everything worked and try taking it around the block, by playing.
I know your gonna say this is not different and this is your first beta release but it does not seem the same. Personally I was shocked to see you post several weeks ago when you said - we have not begun to address events - In the old CORE EVERYTHING was in process at the same time. Your comment caught me totally by surprise since - when mods are getting close to release they usually have polished most of the product. From you comment it looked as if you had just focused on the TECHs. That would make CORE2 a "Mini Mod" which only addresses a part of the game.
If I/we had known you folks were not working on events - well, let me put it this way - WE could have done it for you during this year and you would not need to NOW address it. I assumed someone on the CORE team had already been working on it ALL YEAR LONG. Otherwise we ALL would have voulenteered for it.
Sorry for the vent - got going there - back to the point -
Anyway, what I think he means is that there is a major difference between the way this mod has been approached and the original CORE was.
Dont get me wrong -First) I appreciate the work youve done -Second) I know this is a labor of love -Third) When it does get released I'd enjoy trying it out -But If I'd have known at the beginning of the year it would be till december/and then it is just ver 0.1, I would/could have saved myself much anguish and time. My expectations (and probably everybody elses) were that this mod would progress like others do - Example the 10+ mods from Rome Total War (visit the totalwar.org to see or rometotalrealism.org), The mod "Stony Road" for HOI already in its 2.05 version and a lot of fun, and too many other mods to mention. Even the TRP/HOI mod beat you to it with what looks like less people.
At this point I expect to see comments in the main forums asking "whens the next HOI coming out", not "Our mods now ready for its 0.1 release".
Jeeze Im ranting again. Sorry. Just disappointed that with the name CORE, "Community Open Resource Exchange", I expected it to be open to almost everyone and have all of its facets (Tech, Events, Graphics, Etc ) under development at THE SAME TIME by NUMEROUS participants. Guess the title is a little misleading.
It really seems to be an issue of control. The team must do everyting. Its not like there is the entire community contributing (they would have already done the events and graphics FOR/with you). Your own comments to me sooo long ago indicated that even you only became a "member of the team" after a LOT of effort and posts/contributions. You achieved acceptance eventually. I get the feeling if you not a "Team" member you posts are not important to the "Teams" concept of where they are heading. Note - I'm implying that this mod is the "Teams" creation - NOT the Community's !
The name needs to get changed. Should/when the next HOI comes out and if another mod like this is started, please leave out the "Community" part of Core in the name.
Ive got to apologize again.
Funny, I'm fine with Stony Road/HOI and the way its developed but - it seems every time I think of the current CORE i get steamed up. My points are still relevant, but I must apoligize for my delivery and sarcasm. I'll try to stay away again. Last time I started posting it was after a couple of months of forced absence. Time to smell the roses somewhere else.
Guess at this point my post regarding accessing the Core mod forum is moot.
You are probably tired of hearing from me anyway.
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I would have to say that Grattons has a point. This has been an entirely different journey than CORE 1. The whole concept with an off-site forum and closed development is almost the contrary to the experience I had last time around.
I am not meaning to rant, just trying to state a fact.
Of course having an off-site forum might give you more freedom but it also means that the number of people getting involved is minimised. Not to mention the risk of losing all the work....
I have recently gotten involved at the latest off-site forum and I am truly enjoying it, just like I did last time, writing events and discussing the game. But I know I would have been back contributing a lot sooner had it been based here (not to mention been released at earlier stages of its development). I am sure a great CORE site with sub-forums could have been incorporated here. Or am I missing something?
The way I understand it this mod is called CORE because we are all suppose to be Openly contributing. That is impossible until we have a 0.1 release. And I personally, without any facts that might change my understanding of it, regret that the first beta-release was not made as soon as the first draft of a tech tree had been finished or some CORE1 events had been re-coded.
That would have been like last time and I believe that we would have gotten further, with much less strain on the team, by now.
But then again, all things change.
Hopefully it will be out soon, meanwhile head over to http://www.21vikings.dk and post a comment or just have a look around, perhaps at my new
purge event-chain for the USSR. It's all there for you to see..
I don't think it will get the mod out faster, but you will have something to ease the waiting.
Cheers!
I am not meaning to rant, just trying to state a fact.
Of course having an off-site forum might give you more freedom but it also means that the number of people getting involved is minimised. Not to mention the risk of losing all the work....
I have recently gotten involved at the latest off-site forum and I am truly enjoying it, just like I did last time, writing events and discussing the game. But I know I would have been back contributing a lot sooner had it been based here (not to mention been released at earlier stages of its development). I am sure a great CORE site with sub-forums could have been incorporated here. Or am I missing something?
The way I understand it this mod is called CORE because we are all suppose to be Openly contributing. That is impossible until we have a 0.1 release. And I personally, without any facts that might change my understanding of it, regret that the first beta-release was not made as soon as the first draft of a tech tree had been finished or some CORE1 events had been re-coded.
That would have been like last time and I believe that we would have gotten further, with much less strain on the team, by now.
But then again, all things change.
Hopefully it will be out soon, meanwhile head over to http://www.21vikings.dk and post a comment or just have a look around, perhaps at my new
purge event-chain for the USSR. It's all there for you to see..
I don't think it will get the mod out faster, but you will have something to ease the waiting.
Cheers!
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We made it clear from monent #1 that our 0.1 would focus primarily on technologies and models, as we were not completely satisfied with Vanilla HoI. If you would remember CORE 1, we heavily modified technologies in it as well, we just learned from our lessons of CORE 1, which was that modding techs BEFORE events made more sense (as we had to revamp a lot of our events because of new technologies). We were never a purely 'event-based' mod.
We never excluded anyone from the team, we were somewhat surprised to see that very few bothered to post, or give input when we had coremod.org. When the website went down, work slowed, as it had to be done purely by e-mail. Yet even still, very few offered help or input in this forum either.
We never excluded anyone from the team, we were somewhat surprised to see that very few bothered to post, or give input when we had coremod.org. When the website went down, work slowed, as it had to be done purely by e-mail. Yet even still, very few offered help or input in this forum either.
Guess what? There was a development forum for CORE1 as well! It was harder to get into as well.
Show interest, give ideas, create a framework, and you will find yourself in the development forum. Things aren't different, we just had way more volunteers providing substantially more information (thereby more CORE members) for HoI1. When we had coremod.org, we had very little traffic there. People who showed heavy interest and offered their help (Baylox for one) were offered entrence. We eagerly gathered everyone who offered help, it happened to be very few offered this time.
Show interest, give ideas, create a framework, and you will find yourself in the development forum. Things aren't different, we just had way more volunteers providing substantially more information (thereby more CORE members) for HoI1. When we had coremod.org, we had very little traffic there. People who showed heavy interest and offered their help (Baylox for one) were offered entrence. We eagerly gathered everyone who offered help, it happened to be very few offered this time.
McNaughton:
I am not meaning to criticise the CORE team, or its decisions. I am just saying that I feel that some of them have been unfortunate, which is very easy to do with retrospective. About people not getting involved at coremod, I don't know why, familiarity perhaps. In my own case I did register some time during the spring, lurked around and wrote some post about wanting to help out with unit icons. I received one reply about asking for the models.csv when it was finished and then it was forgotten. I then thought that I would wait until the first release to get into it (just like I did last time). But there was none.
I don't know if more people had a similar experience, but I think it's safe to say that with the number of members at these forums things would have been different if it would have been the base and the setback with the hack wouldn't have slowed everything down. Again, this is easy to say looking back. About a hard to access development forum for CORE1, that is something I have no knowledge about. I guess that would be good reason for having your own forum, but couldn't it had been set up here?
I am not meaning to criticise the CORE team, or its decisions. I am just saying that I feel that some of them have been unfortunate, which is very easy to do with retrospective. About people not getting involved at coremod, I don't know why, familiarity perhaps. In my own case I did register some time during the spring, lurked around and wrote some post about wanting to help out with unit icons. I received one reply about asking for the models.csv when it was finished and then it was forgotten. I then thought that I would wait until the first release to get into it (just like I did last time). But there was none.
I don't know if more people had a similar experience, but I think it's safe to say that with the number of members at these forums things would have been different if it would have been the base and the setback with the hack wouldn't have slowed everything down. Again, this is easy to say looking back. About a hard to access development forum for CORE1, that is something I have no knowledge about. I guess that would be good reason for having your own forum, but couldn't it had been set up here?
Grattons said:
I would like to say something to establish my credentials here at the beginning; I have been involved with CORE as an active participant since version 0.1 of the original release.
Back then Generalisimo was in charge and Steel and Copper Nicus were support personnel. I created the naval tech tree for version 0.2 which was released about three months after the initial release. The original CORE started off as a project to add historically accurate events in to the HoI universe. The initial release (if I remember correctly) consisted of approximately 100 events. Most of those initial events have since been included in Vanilla HoI2. In the second release, we included a new naval tech tree and I believe an infantry tree. These releases got more complex as time goes on until with version 0.9 (the final version) we had replaced all of the tech trees and included somewhere on the order of 1500 events.
Throughout this entire process there has been a core group (pun intended) which has been responsible for content. That group has changed and evolved as time goes on. Mostly due to additional time constraints. We lost Generalisimo as our leader when his time demands for Victoria became overwhelming. Last spring we lost Steel and Copper Nicus when the demands of their personal lives became too great. There has also been a great flow in and out of different people over the past couple of years.
Why am I posting this? I guess I am trying to show that things aren't too different than they have been all along. CORE has always been an evolving product as people determined what should be and what could be included in a release.
With the initial release of CORE for HoI2 (or simply CORE2), we have changed the historical order of CORE1. A large part of this was the growing pains that were discovered trying to balance an existing mod to handle changes to the units and tech trees. By redoing the tech trees and units at the beginning of the process we hope to minimize those growing pains. Do not forget that there were four releases (0.2 to 0.6) of CORE1 as we worked out the tech trees and before we could even start at balancing out the mod as a whole.
With the initial release of CORE2 we are going to have entirely new units structures and tech trees for everything but land combat and naval combat doctrines. We are also going to have approximately 150 new events not including the mobilisation events for every country that have been developed. It isn't that we weren't working on events, but most of our effort has been focused on creating the tech trees and unit structure. I believe that we are farther along with the initial release of CORE2 than we were at the fourth release of CORE1.
As has been true for the entire history of CORE, anyone can participate and contribute. And I do mean anyone. If you can make a case for why something should change or be included, it is done most of the time. There is a burden for people that want to be involved to take the time and effort to be involved. I (or anyone else) is rarely going to take the time to hunt you down to get your contribution. Another key to getting your stuff included is the ability to do your own coding. Having to wait for coding time from someone else probably won't get your material included as easily. With CORE2 we have new members who weren't as active with the development of CORE1. Baylox is a new comer to the CORE2 Team and has made a huge contribution to the development of tech trees and events.
I appologize for the fact that you feel that you are being marginalized and don't feel included. It was never my or anyone elses intent. Hopefully we will see you on either this forum or the offsite forum in the future. I do question how much that you have tried to contribute when you have made 31 posts in two and a half years. MDow
barrabas said:
I feel that I owe you a large apology, and a very public one. You have been very persistant in trying to volunteer to do anything that we asked. I apologize for not utilizing you as well as I should have. I appreciate the fact that you have been persistant enough and dedicated enough to still be a contributing member. I am getting ready to integrate your chain of events for the Russian Officer purges.
Now back to the original topic of your post...
The reason that we moved offsite with our working forum is due to the unreliability of the Paradox forum. Sorry Johan and the overseers watching this site. I know that many of you have shared in my frustration while trying to get logged on and participate and not being able to due to system load. Coremod.org was a successful way to increase the reliability of our communcations as a community of developers. It was marginally successful in that regard. Hopefully with the new forum we can do a better job of that.
Another reason for having a seperate forum is the ability to have our own complex set-up. For just CORE we have the same amount of threads as Paradox can dedicate to some games. This allows us to keep information organized better that we could where whole sections of the offsite would be a thread on this forum.
I am a strong believer that we can never be truely independent of this forum though. I try and make a point to keep the people that follow only the Paradox forum feel just as valuable as the posters on the offsite forum. I also try and make some perks over here so people continue to participate on this forum. Some of you might have noticed that the updates and screenshots are over on this forum.
If there is a way that you feel that we can continue to support the users of the Paradox forum better, let me know and I will do my best (as time allows) to accomplish it. I also want to encourage all of you that are reading this to go to the Offsite Forum and participate in the discussions happening over there. MDow
Thanks for the update. I understand the increasing need for mods to relocate to independent off-site forums. It is a sad trend that has started to impact even back to the EU2 forums now, but it is a logistical neccessity.
Nuclear Winter said:Weehaw, 56 available IC for the US! talk about humbling the giant down!
With regards to that, MDOW, are there events to increase American IC drastically as it moves past 1938? Because with the American IC the way it is in vanilla, the AI simply does not build enough factories to even come close to the economic power house that the United States was in WWII (where they were producing more steel and other war related materials than the British, Germans, Italians, and Japanese combined in 1942). I want a challenge when I take on the US!
Great job gentlemen!
lwarmonger said:With regards to that, MDOW, are there events to increase American IC drastically as it moves past 1938? Because with the American IC the way it is in vanilla, the AI simply does not build enough factories to even come close to the economic power house that the United States was in WWII (where they were producing more steel and other war related materials than the British, Germans, Italians, and Japanese combined in 1942). I want a challenge when I take on the US!
Great job gentlemen!
There are a series of three mobilisation events which change the peacetime modifier in steps. There are some pretty complex triggers to make them happen at logical times according to world events. Of course, in the event of war, all of the handicaps for the US are removed.
Actually, we have these events for pretty much every nation in the game. Some countries like Italy and Germany which are already partially mobilised have fewer events because there are fewer steps to go through, but pretty much every country has some sort of peacetime modifier.
Makes it tough to play some small countries, but I think it adds to the challenge. In one of my test games as Haiti, I noticed that the peacetime modifier makes it very tough. I couldn't even take over the Dominican Republic.
MDow
Ah. Sounds good.
Both the staged upswing for the big powers, and the doctrine tree future reworking.
Both the staged upswing for the big powers, and the doctrine tree future reworking.
MateDow, you mentioned a lack of inspireing posts for CORE2 and less ppl wanting to help...
Well i for one need to see the thing befor i can form me a picture and make suggestions to make it better. This worked good with CORE1 and i am proud some of my suggestions made it into the basic techtree layout (e.g. longer research time half cost change for "gold techs")
I bet some other ppl feel the same way..without a basis to improve, its hard to make suggestions.
CORE for HOI was a step by step evolution to make a good game better, as i see it now you are a couple steps ahead but the big playerbase cant see it.
When you release the 1st CORE2 files, you will see that ppl start to make suggestions for changes based on the mod at hand.
I have no doubt about that...
Szun
edit: well i just thought of something that buggs me in HOI2.
I do not have any idea if it is adressed in CORE2 or not, but i find the lack of naval doctrines for germany a point for improvement.
I played the HIP mod for a couple days now and build up a navy early on as germany. Well i noticed that german battleship possitioning ends at 50/80 in 1940 with no further possible improvement.
On the other hand the british fleet start the war with 50/80 and has 1 or 2 more positioning doctrines to end up around 60/90 or 70/100.
It is even worst in the CV department for german navy.
Well, i still kick the british out or the north atlantic with supirior ships like Bismarck class and super hvy BBs. In my latest game i had lost 2 CL in 2 engagements in '39 while sinking 2 BBs 2 BC a couple CAs and CL to a total of 22 ships sunk on the british side. (with 6 BBs 5 BC 1 CA and 15 screens)
I hope CORE2 has some more doctrines for germany in that regard. I dont ask for easy ones, but 1 or 2 more after 1940 would really make a big differance, even with only +5 possitioning...
Well i for one need to see the thing befor i can form me a picture and make suggestions to make it better. This worked good with CORE1 and i am proud some of my suggestions made it into the basic techtree layout (e.g. longer research time half cost change for "gold techs")
I bet some other ppl feel the same way..without a basis to improve, its hard to make suggestions.
CORE for HOI was a step by step evolution to make a good game better, as i see it now you are a couple steps ahead but the big playerbase cant see it.
When you release the 1st CORE2 files, you will see that ppl start to make suggestions for changes based on the mod at hand.
I have no doubt about that...
Szun
edit: well i just thought of something that buggs me in HOI2.
I do not have any idea if it is adressed in CORE2 or not, but i find the lack of naval doctrines for germany a point for improvement.
I played the HIP mod for a couple days now and build up a navy early on as germany. Well i noticed that german battleship possitioning ends at 50/80 in 1940 with no further possible improvement.
On the other hand the british fleet start the war with 50/80 and has 1 or 2 more positioning doctrines to end up around 60/90 or 70/100.
It is even worst in the CV department for german navy.
Well, i still kick the british out or the north atlantic with supirior ships like Bismarck class and super hvy BBs. In my latest game i had lost 2 CL in 2 engagements in '39 while sinking 2 BBs 2 BC a couple CAs and CL to a total of 22 ships sunk on the british side. (with 6 BBs 5 BC 1 CA and 15 screens)
I hope CORE2 has some more doctrines for germany in that regard. I dont ask for easy ones, but 1 or 2 more after 1940 would really make a big differance, even with only +5 possitioning...
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Grattons-
The way CORE is released hasn't changed. All that's different is that we're being "more open" about our status and where we're at right now than previously. When CORE gets released, it will be 0.1 (or whatever), just as it was for CORE1. We're not looking or even trying to have a "complete" release right off the bat here. The same process as before will be up and running once we get that initial release out the door. If we ever hit 1.0 (doubtful considering Doomsday), that will be the "final release" of CORE. Everything else will be a "beta" release.
The way CORE is released hasn't changed. All that's different is that we're being "more open" about our status and where we're at right now than previously. When CORE gets released, it will be 0.1 (or whatever), just as it was for CORE1. We're not looking or even trying to have a "complete" release right off the bat here. The same process as before will be up and running once we get that initial release out the door. If we ever hit 1.0 (doubtful considering Doomsday), that will be the "final release" of CORE. Everything else will be a "beta" release.
Just to clarify a few points here, and provide some long forgotten answers to some issues...
Like MateDow, I've been involved with CORE since it wa just a few events slung together as a single download. It's grown leaps and bounds since that time. As such, we needed more organization, and more structure than the original ad hoc method. It was this new structure that produced CORE for HoI1 0.3-0.9x.
Like McNaughton said, we've learned from a number of mistakes we made while working on CORE1. The tech tree issue is just one. We're far more organized than we were back then, and as such, I think we're far ahead of where we were at in comparison with CORE1. Yes, it's taken us longer, but what we've got is far ahead of anything we did for CORE1 at the same point.
Now, there are a couple of reasons why the main development of CORE has shifted off site. First off, when we made the original move, P'dox was having bandwidth and stability issues that made consistent and regular development nearly impossible. We made the move to help P'dox reduce load on teh forum servers, and allow us to continue progress on development. It also allowed us to have more control over things related to CORE, rather than having to rely on P'dox moderators (who are often over worked monitoring everything) to move threads, or merge them into the proper threads, or what not. It also reduced the "noise to chatter" ratio, as with an off site forum, we don't get confused people asking about vanilla or other Mods.
We are still human beings, no matter what got said about CORE1. We do forget things, and need occassional reminders about things.
We still patrol the CORE forums here, as can be seen. However, we will continue to keep all development at the core2mod site.
Like MateDow, I've been involved with CORE since it wa just a few events slung together as a single download. It's grown leaps and bounds since that time. As such, we needed more organization, and more structure than the original ad hoc method. It was this new structure that produced CORE for HoI1 0.3-0.9x.
Like McNaughton said, we've learned from a number of mistakes we made while working on CORE1. The tech tree issue is just one. We're far more organized than we were back then, and as such, I think we're far ahead of where we were at in comparison with CORE1. Yes, it's taken us longer, but what we've got is far ahead of anything we did for CORE1 at the same point.
Now, there are a couple of reasons why the main development of CORE has shifted off site. First off, when we made the original move, P'dox was having bandwidth and stability issues that made consistent and regular development nearly impossible. We made the move to help P'dox reduce load on teh forum servers, and allow us to continue progress on development. It also allowed us to have more control over things related to CORE, rather than having to rely on P'dox moderators (who are often over worked monitoring everything) to move threads, or merge them into the proper threads, or what not. It also reduced the "noise to chatter" ratio, as with an off site forum, we don't get confused people asking about vanilla or other Mods.
We are still human beings, no matter what got said about CORE1.
We do forget things, and need occassional reminders about things.We still patrol the CORE forums here, as can be seen. However, we will continue to keep all development at the core2mod site.
I see that hoicoremod.org has been taken over by someone else. I just clicked on it and got an advertisement.