CORE Tech Tree: Nuclear

[JRaup]

Quick question: what's the general opinion on deactivating the nuclear technology tree for third-rate nations? The point of this is to stop tech trade where DI is wasted on giving nuke techs to Oman, Yemen etc.

This works for me. It should also prevent some odd tech trades from those nations, such as Yemen giving the UK "Gold" nuke techs (as I've seen happen all too often). It should also put those nations back on track for techs they should be developing.

 

[JRaup]

I think we are worrying over a minor point. Using the San Antonio of the 40's example, a Hiroshima nuke would have destroyed the City of San Antonio as it existed then. An in that era, there was almost nothing other than the immediate city except for farms and ranches. IE, for all intents and purposes that province is gone: no IC, infrastructure reduced to dirt roads, no power, no air, no rail [nexus is gone] ergo: province gone.

The same arguement can be made for most, if not all, of the other provinces. Albuquerque was a quaint town of about 25K then, the balance of the state maybe 250K more people. With ABQ gone, the state would have been essentially at a standstill for years re-building the infrastructure. US66/US85 [now I40/I25] intersection destroyed and a major railhead junction would have disrupted US east/west commerce in a BIG way.

You don't have to level a province to take it out of the game. You just have to make it unusable.

True enough. I was in fact trying to make the same point, just didn't convey it right. It is a conceptual issue that most people over look, due to the vagaries in province size, and some other irregularities due to the way the map works. It's still a trade off in game terms. To use another example that doesn't fit your model, if you nuke Chicago, you take out most of the IC, and some significant infra value, but hardly all of it. Transport could still be handled through other rail/road junctions in southern Illinois, and most of the resource production is outside of Chicago, so that wouldn't be as effected as much. Even so, it's still the best way to handle the effects of a nuke in game IMO.

 

[unmerged(19746)]

Quick question: what's the general opinion on deactivating the nuclear technology tree for third-rate nations? The point of this is to stop tech trade where DI is wasted on giving nuke techs to Oman, Yemen etc.

I agree with this as well. I'd say probably any nation which starts with <50IC is probably safe to deactivate, even small european nations like Greece and Norway.

 

[Steel]

This works for me. It should also prevent some odd tech trades from those nations, such as Yemen giving the UK "Gold" nuke techs (as I've seen happen all too often). It should also put those nations back on track for techs they should be developing.

Running a handsoff test as Yemen I received nuclear tech from Egypt, UK, New Zealand and Oman. With the exception of the UK it's safe to assume that those countries had in turn received their tech from the UK directly or via passdown. This indicates that the benefit in terms of re-directing tech share to more relevant areas would be considerable so I'll go ahead with this change or v0.81.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Tech Randomness

The tech's have a percentage line in the script, but I've never seen a tech that didn't appear after the investment in time and IC. So that would appear to be a feature that was turned off at some point in development?

Is there an event command that turns off a tech, once a country has it? You could take some critical techs and then script an event to eliminate the tech once it was researched and force the player to repeat the research.

A long shot hope, but either of these levers could make the atomic research more problematic.

 

[Steel]

Negative on both counts

You can make some effectively non-researchable (time) and then randomly grant them via events but this would be open to save&reload abuse as well as potentially frustrating for players.

For now I'd say go with what you have, let's see how it works out and if extra complexity/randomness is *really* needed we'll revisit this.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Alas....

Well, then back to the research. One thing that is emerging from the discussions and my research is the really massive change in resource requirements between the theoretical research and the project engineering for weapons. Chadwick's neutron research went from conception to publication in a matter of weeks.

That sets up a divide between the few IC basic science reserach that takes place in the 1930s to finish up the theoretical foundation work for bomb-making and the brute implementation which ought to take the 40 IC level research the Mdow cited above.

This also has a play-balance advantage since none of the democracies have anywhere close to 40 IC discretionary spending power in the 1930s so by the time the engineering comes around, they should have their war entry up to reasonable level so the dictatorships don't win the bomb race by default.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

8100 Series

Hi, Mdow, I'm working on the 8100 series of description and internal links. I have a couple of questions:

1) New Tech: I think the discovery of the neutron deserves a nod.

2) Fission Observation: This is interesting, Curie-Joliot and Fermi saw this and didn't recognize it so Frisch, Hahn, and the rest got the discovery.

3) Microchemistry: What do you mean by this tech?

4) Fermi's Isotope Work: Fermi took the neutron and did a systematic bombardment of all the elements in the periodic table looking for isotopes, building on Curie-Joliot's work on artificial radioactivity. This took from 1934-1937. The results precede fission and due to the systematic nature, were a time-consuming activity.

Radical idea: One approach is to have Fermi's work as a precondition for the fission observation. Then an event gives Fermi's tech to the tier 1 and tier 2 powers near the end of 1937. The other approach is to give Fermi's work a 1 IC/720 day duration so anyone who really wants nukes has to start this early in the game and make everyone do it themselves.

For reasons of play, I would give my vote to the second approach, but IRL the Frisch finished his work on fission in Denmark and a lot of ground work took place in Sweden (Nazi exile effects were starting to show up). Neither of those countries are likely to be doing nuke research in a HOI game. I'm talking myself into making the nuke tree physics almost totally even driven until sometime in 1939 when WW2 finally shut down international science - but then how do you handle nuke research if general war breaks out early?

 

[MateDow]

Hi, Mdow, I'm working on the 8100 series of description and internal links. I have a couple of questions:

Hopefully a couple of answers

1) New Tech: I think the discovery of the neutron deserves a nod.

We can do that. Seems like that would be a first level tech.

3) Microchemistry: What do you mean by this tech?

This is chemistry that deals with small amounts of a chemical. The units of measure tend to be in the microgram quantities. It was used to seperate the plutonium from the irradiated uranium when there wasn't much of it.

4) Fermi's Isotope Work: Fermi took the neutron and did a systematic bombardment of all the elements in the periodic table looking for isotopes, building on Curie-Joliot's work on artificial radioactivity. This took from 1934-1937. The results precede fission and due to the systematic nature, were a time-consuming activity.

Radical idea: One approach is to have Fermi's work as a precondition for the fission observation. Then an event gives Fermi's tech to the tier 1 and tier 2 powers near the end of 1937. The other approach is to give Fermi's work a 1 IC/720 day duration so anyone who really wants nukes has to start this early in the game and make everyone do it themselves.

I think that it would be a good tech. I don't think it should take so long to accomplish. If you put it in with the gold techs and other techs that have to be researched around it, a time of 360 days or so should be sufficient.

For reasons of play, I would give my vote to the second approach, but IRL the Frisch finished his work on fission in Denmark and a lot of ground work took place in Sweden (Nazi exile effects were starting to show up). Neither of those countries are likely to be doing nuke research in a HOI game. I'm talking myself into making the nuke tree physics almost totally even driven until sometime in 1939 when WW2 finally shut down international science - but then how do you handle nuke research if general war breaks out early?

I think that we can have events tied to the nobel prizes (or even better make the events tied to the physics) which grant the information to the major physics powers. We can set a trigger of NOT = atwar which should keep the mass information sharing from happening to a country that is at war. MDow

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Nukes Miscellaneous

1) Neutrons: Great. I can write this up. It was contingent on Bothe's Alpha particle generation tech, however, so that puts it firmly as an 8100 series tech.

2) Micro-chemistry: OK. I'll dig into that.

3) Neutron Bombardment: I'll write up a new tech around this. It is the successor to the neutron and the pre-requisite to Fission Observation. This would also have the mass spectroscope construction as a pre-requisite. It is also the tech where the research starts on 1/1/36.

4) Tech-sharing via event: I like that idea. By limiting it to the major powers with active nuclear research (USA, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, & Sweden) we have rough simulation of the reality of the late-1930s. So players can have a choice of investing early and getting the tech around the beginning of 1937, or they get it for free almost two years later - if world war hasn't broken out (I think the "at war" should be keyed on Germany). The historical result was that everyone went the cheap route, mostly out of ignorance since it wasn't until the fission measurement tech was it plausible for scientists, much less governments, to realize that an atomic bomb would be anything more than science fiction.

5) Links: Quality Control clearly has to link into some of the engineering techs on the nuke tree, and you can also make some of the advanced computers as a requirement for the final bomb designs. The trick here will a back-handed slap at the gamer who jumps into neutron bombardment on 1/1/36 and then gets hung up in 1939 or 1940 because his industrial /electronics infrastructure isn't able to support further development.

6) Basic Radiation: This was Bohr's work, first published in 1913 and the subject of his 1922 Nobel. I think this makes a good fit as the ultimate basic technology and would recommend moving this to the 8000 series tech's.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

...That sets up a divide between the few IC basic science reserach that takes place in the 1930s to finish up the theoretical foundation work for bomb-making and the brute implementation which ought to take the 40 IC level research the Mdow cited above.

This also has a play-balance advantage since none of the democracies have anywhere close to 40 IC discretionary spending power in the 1930s so by the time the engineering comes around, they should have their war entry up to reasonable level so the dictatorships don't win the bomb race by default.

Extremely valid points here. I'm very happy to see you keeping a close eye on the play balance issues. In the end, they are more important than teaching everyone about bomb building mechanics!

BTW: anyone gotten a call yet from Homeland Defense?

 

[unmerged(14102)]

MicroChemistry

...This is chemistry that deals with small amounts of a chemical. The units of measure tend to be in the microgram quantities. It was used to seperate the plutonium from the irradiated uranium when there wasn't much of it... MDow

This is part and parcel of the Separation Technology that i mentioned is one of the keys to enable bomb production. A Crucial tech step ... Maybe you even make a separate Gold Separation Chemistry branch under Industry that takes 2 - 3 years to complete and then enables continued branches in the nuke tree.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Defections - Timing & Location

...
I think that we can have events tied to the nobel prizes (or even better make the events tied to the physics) which grant the information to the major physics powers. We can set a trigger of NOT = atwar which should keep the mass information sharing from happening to a country that is at war. MDow

I like this driection a lot MDow. I think you are onto to something here quite good! This is an area that could use/take a lot of research and thought. Particularly for ahistorical war starts.

Many of the defections were acts of convenience: what i mean is that they happened both timing and location out of conveniece [an international seminar or conference].

So if the war starts early, some of these will happen quite differently. I think we should compile a list of the key people [non-national Nobel winners from 38 - say 54 [remember hte delays in awarding these] for a start and then look at their defection timings. An ahistorical war start could effect that tremendously. So, someone who went to Sweden, might actaully have ended up in the UK or USA. If Sweden is conquered, does this person escape? Or not? Event triggered tech share? And if not, a 1 year delay in his research being duplicated and shared to the West? Very interesting possibilities here ...

 

[unmerged(14102)]

...4) Tech-sharing via event: I like that idea. By limiting it to the major powers with active nuclear research (USA, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, & Sweden) we have rough simulation of the reality of the late-1930s. So players can have a choice of investing early and getting the tech around the beginning of 1937, or they get it for free almost two years later - if world war hasn't broken out (I think the "at war" should be keyed on Germany). The historical result was that everyone went the cheap route, mostly out of ignorance since it wasn't until the fission measurement tech was it plausible for scientists, much less governments, to realize that an atomic bomb would be anything more than science fiction.

If you are comfortable with the thought the this university driven research was free ... someone has to pay for it somehow ... i would prefer the idea of some low cost, long length techs [2 x 360] simulating this university research that force players to consider this early or not. Certainly the US did this historically ...

5) Links: Quality Control clearly has to link into some of the engineering techs on the nuke tree, and you can also make some of the advanced computers as a requirement for the final bomb designs. The trick here will a back-handed slap at the gamer who jumps into neutron bombardment on 1/1/36 and then gets hung up in 1939 or 1940 because his industrial /electronics infrastructure isn't able to support further development.

I agree. Again, supported historically. There is sufficient discussion about the GER triggers in this regard to support this quite nicely. And certainly the USA efforts spent considerable resources on this.

...6) Basic Radiation: This was Bohr's work, first published in 1913 and the subject of his 1922 Nobel. I think this makes a good fit as the ultimate basic technology and would recommend moving this to the 8000 series tech's.

Agreed. Absoutely. We could use this to separate out all of the 3rd tier countries. Make it big and expensive to get. Representing the investment to build such lab's to conduct these types of experiemtns and the cost of developing the people to do it. Face it; at this time there were only a small handful of people who understood Einstein's and Bohr's paers. Pauli's and Schroedinger's works were even more obtuse. Then give it to the selected 1st tier group only. You have just cut the world into the ahve and hove nots.

Simple. Elegant. Historically accurate.

 

[MateDow]

Extremely valid points here. I'm very happy to see you keeping a close eye on the play balance issues. In the end, they are more important than teaching everyone about bomb building mechanics!

I think that everyone should learn about bomb building mechanics

BTW: anyone gotten a call yet from Homeland Defense?

I did, but I told them I was really building a nuclear powered battleship and they said "OK" MDow

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Thanks for the observations and support. Starting to move up into the 8200s. Some more observations:

1) Some of the higher tech's are very pre-war, e.g. Lawrence put together his cyclotron in 1931 and had it patented by 1934 and Joliot-Curie demonstrated artificial radiation in 1932. I think one approach to this is to pull the pre-1/1/36 technologies into the 8100 tier. Then 8000 and 8100 go to the Tier 1 powers. The 8200 gold tech is where the game starts, and Neutron Bombardment becomes the first basic technology available for research.

2) "Free Research": I can understand Pax's concern that this really isn't "free", but going back to some of Mithel's calculations about how much an IC costs, the theoretical breakthroughs have virtually zero IC cost - it's the genius of the scientists involved. In the democracies you had a lot of economic activity outside of government command and control. A little bit bled back into militarily useful research, especially in industry, electronics, and aeronautics. I think the physics research mostly falls into the consumer side of the economy. The bomb engineering is a different matter.

3) Fate, Exiles, and Synergy: There is real serendipity in this timeline where Frisch returns from Sweden to catch Bohr on the way to the harbor and tells him about fission. Bohr noodles the new data on the liner across the Atlantic. Fermi (who elected to take a faculty position at Columbia instead of returning to Italy - his wife was Jewish - after collecting his Nobel the previous month) is waiting for Bohr at the gang plank in New York. Within a matter of days they're experimenting at Columbia University watching fission take place. Bohr puts the theory in place and then they head to conference, where Joliot see's Frisch's work publicized in Naturwisschenschaft, and catches up to Bohr's theoretical work on his own in an afternoon. This is essentially January, 1939.

4) As Pax said:

at this time there were only a small handful of people who understood Einstein's and Bohr's papers.

True, but in early 1939 a critical mass of them were in the same rooms at the same time. Even if they weren't, they all read one another's papers in the professional journals and so the knowledge was disseminated as fast as the post moved.

5) Event driven tech: I think more than ever giving the tech's to everyone in top Tier 1 countries is right way to simulate what was going on - until the war hits and everything goes under military security.

 

[Der Bismarck]

Diplomacy effects of a bombs

IS there any thought of awarding Diplomacy Influence points for the 1st use of a Nuclear weapon? It certainly had a diplomatic effect!

 

[unmerged(14102)]

I did, but I told them I was really building a nuclear powered battleship and they said "OK" MDow

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Thanks for the observations and support. Starting to move up into the 8200s. Some more observations:

1) Some of the higher tech's are very pre-war, e.g. Lawrence put together his cyclotron in 1931 and had it patented by 1934 and Joliot-Curie demonstrated artificial radiation in 1932. I think one approach to this is to pull the pre-1/1/36 technologies into the 8100 tier. Then 8000 and 8100 go to the Tier 1 powers. The 8200 gold tech is where the game starts, and Neutron Bombardment becomes the first basic technology available for research..

I would agree with this as it creates the barreir for all non-tier 1 powers to ever pursue this.

2) "Free Research": I can understand Pax's concern that this really isn't "free", but going back to some of Mithel's calculations about how much an IC costs, the theoretical breakthroughs have virtually zero IC cost - it's the genius of the scientists involved. In the democracies you had a lot of economic activity outside of government command and control. A little bit bled back into militarily useful research, especially in industry, electronics, and aeronautics. I think the physics research mostly falls into the consumer side of the economy. The bomb engineering is a different matter. .

IIRC Fermi started his research at UoC as a funded chair position, then he got roped into the Manhattan project. Prior to that though, the principal funding was still the War Dept via UoC [University of Chicago].

Even the theorectical research involved some lab experiments to attempt to confirm the hypotheses. In fact in the late 30's that is what most of them were trying to begin to do: confirm and substantiate all of the theories from the 10's and 20's [i phrase it this way because in fact we are STILL trying to do this today!].

Granted though, in the 30's, the lab cost was probably not 1 IC/year, so ignoring it is safe.

3) Fate, Exiles, and Synergy: There is real serendipity in this timeline where Frisch returns from Sweden to catch Bohr on the way to the harbor and tells him about fission. Bohr noodles the new data on the liner across the Atlantic. Fermi (who elected to take a faculty position at Columbia instead of returning to Italy - his wife was Jewish - after collecting his Nobel the previous month) is waiting for Bohr at the gang plank in New York. Within a matter of days they're experimenting at Columbia University watching fission take place. Bohr puts the theory in place and then they head to conference, where Joliot see's Frisch's work publicized in Naturwisschenschaft, and catches up to Bohr's theoretical work on his own in an afternoon. This is essentially January, 1939..

Right, so if war breaks out on the continent in '38, the meetings never take place ... think of those ripples ... i think this is what we need to think through and get events for. IMHO, these events contributed more than anything else to the bomb in '45. If these people don't get together because of war, a couple are killed, they get trapped in Nazi - europe, what if Fermi never makes it to the US? Yikes?!?!!

4)
True, but in early 1939 a critical mass of them were in the same rooms at the same time. Even if they weren't, they all read one another's papers in the professional journals and so the knowledge was disseminated as fast as the post moved. .

Agreed ... and so supports my above statement about ahistorical outcomes [highly probable in the game, right?]

5) Event driven tech: I think more than ever giving the tech's to everyone in top Tier 1 countries is right way to simulate what was going on - until the war hits and everything goes under military security.

Agreed, until general war breaks out on the continent. Then depending upon the time we need to decide who gets stuck in europe and what that means to the Manhattan project timeline. ...

You seem to know the history quite well. I have only read bio's on Fermi and Einstein ... a bit on Pauli and Schroedinger, but not enough on the other European contributors ... thnk we need some more help ....

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Ripples

PaxMondo:

if war breaks out on the continent in '38, the meetings never take place ... think of those ripples

• 
  
  The most likely general war scenarios are an aggressive German player or the Czech Crisis in the autumn of 1938 escalates to war. We know historically that the Sino-Japanese War had no discernable effect on the atomic research. Ripples:
  - With the outbreak of the war, the professional publications of the belligerents dry up under military censorship.
  - You still have significant science taking place in the USA and open publication until war overtakes the republic.
  - The Nobel Committee keeps going unless Sweden ends up in a war.
  - Bohr's lab in Copenhagen was a key center for research.
  - The scientists with Jewish connections were clearly leaving Germany and Italy by the 2nd half of 1938.
  - Counter-ripple: there was enough talent in the field by the late 1930s that warfare would have had primary effect of changing the names on the discoveries and delaying them for no more than a matter of months (This is arguable but needs to be considered).
  
  I know that earlier I stated that Germany was a key "at war" trigger, but I'm having second thoughts on exclusively keying on that. My thoughts on this run something like this:
  - If general war breaks out prior to mid-1938 then some of the key German scientists are likely to be trapped in Germany and research is set back but not stopped.
  - If general war breaks out with the Czech Crisis, then I think that this only subtracts French, English, and German loyalist scientists from the mix. Fermi still gets to the USA, the exiles and Bohr still put things together on time.
  - If Sweden and/or Denmark get into war or are conquered prior to 1939, then that has a more major disruption and the public science is cut off so the nuke research has to take place under explicit government direction.
  - Fermi gets out unless Italy is at war in 12/38.
  - There are admitted 2nd order interactions in the bullets above that need to be considered.
  - The final point is that this sort of consideration is one of the last things we need to finalize after getting the basic tech tree fleshed out with dependencies, costs, and durations.