-core creation cost stacking

[grumphie]

i'm kind of confused with how -core creation cost modifiers stack.

if i take i normal natioonw ithotu -core creation cost. if you take administrative ideas, you get a -25% core cost reduction, making it cost 7,5 instead of 10 ADM for each development. then there's ADM effieciency which further reduces it by 20/40/60%, and at max level thus reducing by almost the max 90% reduction.

there is also base cost reduction for provinces that are overseas, which reduces the base cost by 50% - so now you're reducing core costs from a 5 base ADM for each development.

how does hostile core creation factor in here? does it stack seperatly, or is it basicly -45%+50%=105% coring cost? is there any point in keeping things overseas for reduced coring costs if you're already at 1 ADM/DEV? how valuable is the modifier actually in situations like custom nation or event choices?

 

[Rusky]

I thought it just added up unless it's a different modifier. ADM efficiency is a separate modifier so it would probably apply 1st and then have the core cost reduction work off that.
The hostile core creation is the modifier that adds to coring cost due to aristocracy or NI, right? It would probably work with the core cost reduction. So 50% increase in coring cost + 25% decrease = 25% increase.

 

[Arumba]

All core creation modifiers are additive with a minimum value of 10%. So if you play as the Ottomans with the Adaptability idea and a claim, and you have admin efficiency at 20%, your cost is:

Development * (100% * (1 - (Claim Reduction + Idea Reduction + Admin Efficiency Reduction + Hostile Core Creation Modifiers)))

In this case, that would be Development * (100% * (1 - .10 - .33 - .25 - .20 +0) = Development * .12

 

[Seraphithan]

how does hostile core creation factor in here? does it stack seperatly, or is it basicly -45%+50%=105% coring cost? is there any point in keeping things overseas for reduced coring costs if you're already at 1 ADM/DEV? how valuable is the modifier actually in situations like custom nation or event choices?

Not even the Ottomans can overcome +50 hostile core creation cost so keeping that territory overseas remains useful, otherwise there is no benefit if you have hit 1 ADM/DEV.

Reduced coring cost and claims also have one characteristic that neither hostile core cost, oversea coring or admin efficiency have: they reduce coring time. That means that even if you can hit a total discount of more than 90% in the late game without admin ideas or other -cc sources there is still a benefit to taking them.

In theory the Ottomans and some other nations could overcome the +50 and still hit minimal coring cost but it would require ridiculous and potential impossible religion switches ending with you becoming fully reformed Mayan after becoming emperor.

 

[Issac1709]

Distant overseas is a 50% multiplicative modifier off the base cost for provinces that are not on the same continent as your capital and are (I believe) more than 150 'distance' away from your capital. This allows for some provinces across the Europa/Africa border for example to not be distant overseas.

Everything else is additive, with a minimum value of 10%. So if you play as the Ottomans with the Adaptability idea and a claim, and you have admin efficiency at 20%, your cost is:

Development * (100% * (1 - (Claim Reduction + Idea Reduction + Admin Efficiency Reduction + Hostile Core Creation Modifiers)))

In this case, that would be Development * (100% * (1 - .10 - .33 - .25 - .20 +0) = Development * .12

It is NOT multiplicative after 1.12, it is FLAT 50% reduction.

 

[Issac1709]

Not even the Ottomans can overcome +50 hostile core creation cost so keeping that territory overseas remains useful, otherwise there is no benefit if you have hit 1 ADM/DEV.

Reduced coring cost and claims also have one characteristic that neither hostile core cost, oversea coring or admin efficiency have: they reduce coring time. That means that even if you can hit a total discount of more than 90% in the late game without admin ideas or other -cc sources there is still a benefit to taking them.

In theory the Ottomans and some other nations could overcome the +50 and still hit minimal coring cost but it would require ridiculous and potential impossible religion switches ending with you becoming fully reformed Mayan after becoming emperor.

There are about 10 countries +-100 provinces with increased coring cost, its not worth it IMO (What does IMO even mean?)

 

[Arumba]

Ottomans can overcome 50% hostile core creation cost in the late late game.

100% base cost
+50% hostile core creation cost
-10% claim
-25% adaptability
-33% ottoman ideas
-60% admin efficiency
-10% for being the emperor of the HRE (If you switch to orthodox and somehow force the treaty of westphalia)
=
12%

 

[Arumba]

It is NOT multiplicative after 1.12, it is FLAT 50% reduction.

Ahh my bad, I missed that change. I'll update my post to the correct info then.

 

[alpaca]

Ottomans can overcome 50% hostile core creation cost in the late late game.

100% base cost
+50% hostile core creation cost
-10% claim
-25% adaptability
-33% ottoman ideas
-60% admin efficiency
-10% for being the emperor of the HRE (If you switch to orthodox and somehow force the treaty of westphalia)
=
12%

Why not become catholic instead? Or Hindu, one of the gods also has 10% coring reduction (Shiva, I think, but could be wrong). Also, 12% is not 10%, so technically the hostile core cost is not overcome, especially if they also choose aristocratic (Merwar, I'm looking at you!). Of course, it's totally unnecessary because overextension is a more relevant limit, but hey, we're talking hypotheticals

There are about 10 countries +-100 provinces with increased coring cost, its not worth it IMO (What does IMO even mean?)

IMO means in my opinion, in case that was a serious question. I'd recommend taking these provinces relatively early, or keep them around for when you have significant admin efficiency. The two areas where it's most relevant is Central India and North Africa. The latter, you can take really quickly even in the early game, if you are willing to spend the points on it. My strategy is usually to isolate North Africa by leaving a single province to the Mamluks (most troop movements there will be via transport anyways, to save time). You can easily keep the Barbary Coast overseas while making a land connection to East Africa once you cored the area, so you can keep it around until you have adm eff. You can do similar things with Persia/Baluchistan as a buffer for India, core it, then create a land connection later, using Bengal or someone as a buffer if getting more stuff still even matters.


OP: event-based modifiers are a tricky beast here. They need only be active when you start coring, which is when you pay the cost. After that, it's irrelevant. I think the same goes for coring time, but I'm not sure about that. So if you get an event, and are limited more by mana cost than overextension, you could consider cancelling the coring (returns full admin points), then restart with the modifier. Also applies to situations like when you unlock ideas. If the modifier expires before you finished coring, that's irrelevant.

 

[Arumba]

Why not become catholic instead? Or Hindu, one of the gods also has 10% coring reduction (Shiva, I think, but could be wrong). Also, 12% is not 10%, so technically the hostile core cost is not overcome, especially if they also choose aristocratic (Merwar, I'm looking at you!). Of course, it's totally unnecessary because overextension is a more relevant limit, but hey, we're talking hypotheticals

Well the game rounds to the nearest point, so a 20 development province at 12% cost is 2.4, which will round down to 2. For most situations this is 'overcome'.

 

[alpaca]

Well the game rounds to the nearest point, so a 20 development province at 12% cost is 2.4, which will round down to 2. For most situations this is 'overcome'.

The rounding is done after the cost is calculated as a float, so the cost is 24, which will be exact in this case. 24 is more than 20. If you have -85% on a 9 dev province, it will cost 13, and appears to round down. Check it out if you like, it might have been different in previous patches, but certainly is so in 1.12 and 1.13 where I checked this carefully. It's just a nitpick, anyways, I agree that the coring cost increase is mostly overcome.

In truth, I think all these additive modifiers should instead be multiplicative (it's actually a sore spot for me in most games). It would make it a lot easier to calculate the effect of a modifier, because you only need to know the current value. It would also remove all the "modifiers get better/worse when you stack them" things that are problematic in my opinion.

 

[Soranya]

You can play with player bonuses - this is an additional 25% cost reduction - so enough for any nation to get the normal costs down to 10% - and for ottomans enough to bring the +50% down to 10%.

I haven't seen the treaty of Westphalia in a long time. Is it still "working"? I remember that back when the Religious wars were introduced that Westphalia basically was the "default" solution if the no Religious war did happen, or the Protestants did win one religous war. Afair they had to win twice to make the Empire Protestant.

On a side note:
Why the hell is Reformed exempt from having a league at all? I feel storngly that this makes them exceptional weak.

Sry, too much OT.

 

[nossnahoj]

I believe it is contraproductive to be good at math to understand the math used in EU, as they have always confused percent with percent units. Hovering the "make core" button on a foreign province is pretty much the only way to know how much it will cost to core it.

 

[Soranya]

Ahh you just have to remember when they re using which one (and keep up to date with all the changes)

 

[_B_art.cz]

I believe it is contraproductive to be good at math to understand the math used in EU, as they have always confused percent with percent units. Hovering the "make core" button on a foreign province is pretty much the only way to know how much it will cost to core it.

I agree.

Also, someone could explain devs what the difference between percentage and percentage point is...

 

[Seraphithan]

Ottomans can overcome 50% hostile core creation cost in the late late game.

A right, I forgot that they only need a discount of 140 and not of 150. Tough becoming HRE as the Ottomans is quite loopy.

Ahh you just have to remember when they re using which one (and keep up to date with all the changes)

Are there actually modifiers that aren't percent-points? Of the top of my head I can't think of any.

 

[alpaca]

Are there actually modifiers that aren't percent-points? Of the top of my head I can't think of any.

Some things are used multiplicatively, such as administrative efficiency for vassal annexation, or combat ability modifiers for combat damage. But mostly, yes, it's percentage points (additive modifiers).

 

[Soranya]

Haven't they changed all Admin Efficency impacts from Multiplicative to Additive? (aka % to %-points)

 

[Wizzington]

Admin Efficiency is multiplicative.

 

[Thrake]

Why not become catholic instead? Or Hindu, one of the gods also has 10% coring reduction (Shiva, I think, but could be wrong). Also, 12% is not 10%, so technically the hostile core cost is not overcome, especially if they also choose aristocratic (Merwar, I'm looking at you!). Of course, it's totally unnecessary because overextension is a more relevant limit, but hey, we're talking hypotheticals

Good luck becoming Orthodox Ottomans, then Emperor, enforcing peace of westphalia, revoking privilege and after that going hindu