I agree there nonsensical but at the end off the day I doubt paradox are going to remove pyramids entirely and if they can can justify letting Egyptian Arabs build them why is it the other Egyptian culture, Copts cant?
Copts cant build pyramids.
- Thread starter treb
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
They're not "Egyptian Arabs," they're just "Egyptian."
egyptian_arab is just an internal game file tag.Copts are not a culture, but a religion, no? Coptic Christianity? Or is there a Coptic culture as well?
Ok, I just checked and Coptic is a culture. Yeah, if Egyptian can build pyramids based on culture then Coptic should be able to as well, for sure.
Theirs a Coptic Culture now that also Speaks Coptic.They're not "Egyptian Arabs," they're just "Egyptian."
Copts are not a culture, but a religion, no? Coptic Christianity? Or is there a Coptic culture as well?
That’s a fair point I’d rather neither could.
if it were entirely to me id require both to either be lunatics or Hellenic pagan, in general we know that Hellenic pagans tended to just interpret local gods as their own gods so it would make sense for Egyptian cultured Hellenic pagan to emulate there pagan ancestors
Actually it makes absolutely no sense for Egyptian Arabs (or anyone) to be able to build pyramids. The last pyramids were build 2000 years before Islam came to Egypt.
The ancient Kemetic culture and civilization is long dead and the closest remnant to their civilization is the Coptic culture. So it would make more sense for Copts to be able to build pyramids than Arabs. Even though both make little sense at all. One Egyptian sultan even tried to destroy the pyramids but stopped after he realized it was pretty much impossible.
The ancient Kemetic culture and civilization is long dead and the closest remnant to their civilization is the Coptic culture. So it would make more sense for Copts to be able to build pyramids than Arabs. Even though both make little sense at all. One Egyptian sultan even tried to destroy the pyramids but stopped after he realized it was pretty much impossible.
I am pretty disappointed that the "very special requirements" the devs mentioned when people mentioned how strange it would be for anyone during CK2s timescale to build a pyramid (like seriously Cleopatra lived closer to the modern day than to the last time the eqyptians built a pyramid) turned out to be "just be an egyptian or even if you aren't just have a single common trait".
It'd have been much better if it required you to be Egyptian/coptic and Lunatic.
It'd have been much better if it required you to be Egyptian/coptic and Lunatic.
So what do you guys think of this kind of requirement:
Must be:
We can @Snow Crystal so he can see what we think should be adjusted and hopefully someone on the team can change it up when they have time between patches.
EDIT: Let the Jews build them too as a joke
EDIT2: Let Elephants build them like the mammoths in the 10,000 BC movie
Must be:
- Egyptian
- Coptic
- Nubian (they built pyramids too)
- Lunatic
- Hellenic (syncretized Kemetic while ruling egypt)
- Aztec (aztec with a pyramid building culture could make egyptian pyramids)
- African Pagan (Closest religion to Kemetic)
We can @Snow Crystal so he can see what we think should be adjusted and hopefully someone on the team can change it up when they have time between patches.
EDIT: Let the Jews build them too as a joke
EDIT2: Let Elephants build them like the mammoths in the 10,000 BC movie
So what do you guys think of this kind of requirement:
Must be:
and
- Egyptian
- Coptic
- Nubian (they built pyramids too)
Did I miss anything else that should be added?
- Lunatic
- Hellenic (syncretized Kemetic while ruling egypt)
- Aztec (aztec with a pyramid building culture could make egyptian pyramids)
- African Pagan (Closest religion to Kemetic)
We can @Snow Crystal so he can see what we think should be adjusted and hopefully someone on the team can change it up when they have time between patches.
EDIT: Let the Jews build them too as a joke
EDIT2: Let Elephants build them like the mammoths in the 10,000 BC movie
Overall I personally like this, but Nubian culture should be excluded. While pyramids were built in what we now call Nubia, the people who built them were Cushites like the Somalis or the Beja and predated the Nubian settlement of the region. The so-called "Nubian pyramids" are Nubian by modern geographical standard and little else, whereas the people we call Nubians only showed up after the fact - invited by the Romans (as fellow Christians) to the area in part to pacify the violent Cushitic tribes (ie the Blemmyes) who were, at the time, attacking Roman authority in Egypt and protesting the closure of the last few Egyptian temples. It'd be more accurate for Somalis to do it than the Nubians who threw out the last people to build a pyramid, though the addition of a Beja culture (and additional new pagan religion) would give this a good home and better representation of the region broadly. In lieu of this, following the Berber example (and fetishism in EU4 having the Semitic deity Waaq), African is technically the closest thing - even if Hellenism makes a better fit (eg temple dedications, astrology and astronomy, animal sacrifices) which is why I'm glad you chose to include both.
The Kingdom of Kush in later history, centered around Meroe, built its last pyramids C. 350 CE. While not exactly medieval, it's fairly recent to medieval memory generally speaking, and one might suppose that if such a kingdom rose again instead of continually devolving into angry half-nomadic tribes (that retained their paganism for at least the first 3-4 start dates) then they might hop back onto the trend all over again. Their pyramids were a fair bit smaller, but one might suppose that's a matter of resources rather than intent.
Overall, perhaps not surprising that the Cushites are the people who ran Kush.
It seems way to easy to build mm pyramids to me. Before the patch you had to be a lunatic WITH a dead dog, now you just have to be a lunatic or egyptian...
Thanks for the extra information. I think the Nubians could still count as well as somali (is the kushitic culture not in game or a different culture?) since they would be doing it for the same reasons an arabic egyptian lunatic would, they grew up seeing pyramids and wanted their own.
Al Aziz was not an Egyptian sultan, he was a Kurdish sultan of Egypt (the son of Saladin) who wanted to destroy them BECAUSE the local Egyptians were presenting offerings to them, which he considered a form of idolatry.
This is why I think introducing a separate Coptic culture is problematic, the linguistic divide was never along religious lines to begin with. It was a rural/urban and lower/upper class divide. The Egyptian Sufi saint Dhul Nun was supposedly one of the few people of his time that could read and understand hieroglyphs for example. I do however understand that people want to roleplay a Christian restoration of Egypt, without the Arab-influenced garbs and names (the fact that they have Greek portraits is beyond me though).
I just want it to remain an option for pagan reformations. Want to do a game at some point where I build pyramids on Kolguyev.
For the fellas who disagreed with my post, I just stumbled upon this interesting comparison of DNA results between a Christian and a Muslim (from Egypt) on Reddit.
Muslim: https://www.reddit.com/r/Egypt/comments/b87jm0/for_the_sake_of_comparison_here_is_my_sons/
Christian: https://www.reddit.com/r/Egypt/comments/b7oqa3/my_23andme_dna_results_coptic/
Obviously two people aren't representative but it's interesting nevertheless. The slightly higher percentage of Western Asian heritage in the Muslim could be a reflection of Muslim openness towards cross-cultural marriages with other Muslim ethnicities in the region that have had a historical presence in Egypt (Turks, Circassians, Georgian Mamluks etc.).
Oh yeah I don't think anyone is against that. (although I'd be happy if it was part of another doctrine to not take up a whole slot
)
Muslim populations having slightly higher amounts of Bedouin and Turk is something that can be seen in a collective situation as well. Sometimes, it's not even 'slight'. The gap between Syrian Muslims and Syrian Christians is massive, with the gap between Christians, Muslims, and Druze in Lebanon is nearly nonexistent.
The specific Cushitic culture that dominated the Kingdom of Kush went linguistically extinct following the Nubian invasion, colonization, and Christianization. The preceding Meroitic language used administratively in Kush is poorly understood today, but the few aspects of it that are secure point to it being part of the Afro-Asiatic family, alongside Hebrew, Arabic, Egyptian, Berber, Amharic, Somali, Hausa, etc. This is further supported by Cushitic loanwords present in the Nubian language(s) with particular emphasis on pastoralism and livestock. The specific branch of Cushitic based on these loanwords is Highland East Cushitic (a stupid name, I know) whose most populous living language is Sidamo. You might recognize this culture from EU4, and it's just slightly off-map for CK2.
The 'spiritual successor' to the Kingdom of Kush would be the Blemmyes, a people we now call the Beja. These pastoral tribes spoke a different branch of Cushitic, but lived in the same general area with much of the same religious and cultural expression, and managed to largely resist Nubian conquest and colonization efforts. You might also remember these guys from EU4 at a time when they've been more or less Islamicized in the 15th century, but they've got a cameo in the Duchy of Blemmyia in the Kingdom of Nubia, but despite being entirely on-map and making up nearly half of the territory of the Kingdom of Nubia, they have no proper representation in-game. This might be due to their unique religious situation, since they perpetuated their paganism through much of the game's timeframe, and the devs never had the time to independently focus on them and do them justice. As it stands, they're a likely candidate to be added if the devs decide to carry through on Kemetic Paganism, since they'd be more-or-less the sole bearers at this point in time.
@Karlingid Ah I remember reading a thread about those people now.
Would you say their religion would close enough to kemetic to possibly put them on the map as kemetic? Or would they fit the general african pagan religion better if placed on map?
Nubia still seems like it could use a little rework to me but that might be worth putting in a another thread.
The culture in the counties that these people should own is nubian in game am i correct?
Would you say their religion would close enough to kemetic to possibly put them on the map as kemetic? Or would they fit the general african pagan religion better if placed on map?
Nubia still seems like it could use a little rework to me but that might be worth putting in a another thread.
The culture in the counties that these people should own is nubian in game am i correct?
The African religion is spread thin enough as it is. People have suggested breaking it into at least two new religions, one for Mali and one for Kanem-Bornu, but that still doesn't do it exact justice so-to-speak. The Beja religion is undoubtedly close enough to Kemetic to warrant its inclusion should they be added, they literally fought holy wars to reclaim Egyptian temples that the Romans had closed - which was a factor in the Romans hiring Nubian mercenaries to help pacify them. There's basically no cut-off line where the Egyptian religion ends and the Beja one begins, with a shared interest at the Temple of Philae - where "Mandulis", aka Horus, was given all due respect by both the Egyptians and Beja. This temple was also the last place to produce hieroglyphs.
And yeah, at the moment, the counties are Nubian.
So you're telling me it's as justified to have kemetic beja in nubia as it is to have druidic in northern scotland?
Ancient religions reborn indeed.