Coptoman 1st WC Attempt (Advice Plz, v. 1.22.1.0)

[doyen_1975]

I am trying to do my first WC.

This is my 5th attempt using a Coptoman strategy. I currently have 5 vassals: Persia (green), Theodora (purple), Georgia (red), Sibir (greyish near Russia), and Djerid (orange).

It is 1605.

Overview: In my 4th attempt I got stuck and unable to expand into India because of Ming's tributary states everywhere. So, this game I became a Ming tributary myself around 1480, and have gobbled up almost all of Ming's tributaries. The only tributaries that remain are Orissa in India (which I am almost done eating), and the southeast Asia minors (Khmer, Annam, Ayutthaya, Phra Bang, Malacca, and Pagaruyung). The only reason I haven't finished the Asia minors up is because my aggressive expansion is so large down there that if I take one more province, Ming will coalition against me.

In the north, I made some kind of mistake (still not sure how) where Mongolia was Orissa's vassal, and I declared on Mongolia. But I peaced-out with Orissa first, fully vassalizing it, and somehow Mongolia automatically became Ming's vassal. I didn't even get an option to make peace with Mongolia. I still don't understand how/why that happened, but it blocked me off from expanding any further north, and I can't get to Korchin or Korea.

In other news, Russia has been under a PU with France for almost 100 years. It has tried to break free twice, but lost the war both times. I've just left it alone, because I didn't want to try and fight both Russia and France while simultaneously expanding elsewhere.

In my next rotation I should finish feeding what is left of Morocco to Djerid, my annexation of Persia should finish, and I will start Baja as a new vassal to feed Ethiopia to. I will push down the east African coastline to about Mozambique, and I will be in a position to finish eating Orissa and start hitting Baluchistan and Sind from the west (once the Persia vassalization is finished).

My ideas are as follows: Religious, Influence, Administrative, Offensive (just started offensive).

I'm lagging behind in total military power: Ming (184,610), Russian (158,000), Ottomans (112,167), Vijaynagar (84,000), France (64,000).

Question: When should I drop the Ming vassalization? When should I start hitting Russia and Ming? I'm worried about my military.

Concerns: I have been at constant war since the game started, but my military tradition keeps dropping, after an initial jump to about 80 in 1500, I'm now down to 40, and I'm lucky if I can hit 50 after a quick war with lots of fast sieges. I'm not sure if I did the right thing about taking Offensive. But damn, I lose so many men every war. I'm usually hovering at about 15-20k manpower, and even the rebels take huge chunks out of my stacks.

Also, the fog of war is annoying the heck out of me. I can't seem to steal or trade maps with anyone. It is very annoying never be able to see the map.

Anyhow, any advice or comments would be useful for me. I'm very inexperienced.

Thanks.

 

[Rikissa]

You need get Persia inside you and then you need the Indian trade

Although that Vijay looks ghastly, it seems you expanded around India which is not the most optimal route of expansion

 

[Rikissa]

Also it seems you fed Georgia, take a look at their National Ideas, they have Hostile Core Creation cost which is going to increase their annexation cost by +50%, you also fed them land you don't want in a state

As the Coptomans, you should be coring stuff directly and not feed it to vassals, releasing Persia is a good call but you shouldn't be doing what you're doing with Theodoro, Djerid and Georgia

 

[doyen_1975]

Ok. Thank you. I didn't know that about Georgia.

I've been trying to expand as rapidly as I can, but I'm often running out of admin points, which is why I have been vassal feeding. I would have to expand more slowly if I didn't feed vassals. Would that be optimal instead?

 

[Rikissa]

To be honest you didn't really dump a lot of development into your northern vassals, you could've combined those three into one vassal and they would still not count for much development.

Releasing Persia is a good call as the Ottomans, but the Djerid vassal also has Hostile Core Creation Cost and you're going to pay for all his state provinces.

If you find yourself running out of admin, you should use admin focus and use your government form to give you high admin heirs.

You should think of this phase of the game as less of a race to get as much development as possible, but rather a phase in which you set yourself up for a larger push later in the game. As the Ottomans, that mostly means getting the Indian trade and steering it into Constantinople. Something which also a lot of Ottomans player do is to take out Muscovy early on because they're going to be religiously and geographically isolated.

You conquered a lot of poor land which isn't really helping you, for example in the Maghreb or in Central Asia.

 

[Vulkandrache]

I didn't know that about Georgia.

Not knowing basics like that isnt going to help with achieveing a WC.
You should, at the very least, look up the NI's of whatever you make into a Vassal.
http://www.eu4wiki.com/Georgia here for example.

Would that be optimal instead?

You seem to be using Vassals wrong.
They are temporary extentions of your country.
Early on they are used to get some extra military.
But there main purpose is to offload OE and to balance coring between Admin and Dip.
Keeping Persia, a Vassal you would have aquired around ~1480, for over 100 years without having a special reason is not advisable.
Especially with Vassal that large and with that many cores you can start the integration way before they have all the land you want to give them.

I would advise anyone trying to use Vassals for rapid expansion to read Path's AAR.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/furor-barbarorum-–-1-15-1-gothic-invasion.913779/
Its a bit outdated, but the baseline mechanics still stand.

When should I drop the Ming vassalization

1. Why are you so afraid of Ming?
The moment you stop being their bitch their mandate will go down the toilet.
You let them get strong.
2. I can understand becoming a Tributary as one of the smaller nations, but as the Ottomans? Come on.

Additionaly the whole tributary thing made you expand in the wrong direction. You should own what Viyai owns, not the crappy land in northern Asia.

When should I start hitting Russia

You should have hit them twice already.
Every time they declare independence i would have declared on them and blitzkrieg some provinces before they fall back into PU status.

and Ming?

I'm lagging behind in total military power

The fact that you kept Persia around for that long is one reason for your small Military. Compared to most of the shit land you expanded into the Persia region is a godsend,
especially

and Djerid

I wouldnt even bother to touch that area until much later. What exactly is it giving you?
If you can snatch it "for free" because infighting or Iberia has weakened them then fine.
But the

I lose so many men every war

you spend over there could have been used to aquire more meaningful provinces.

where Mongolia was Orissa's vassal

Vassals automatically go independent if their parent loses its independence in a war.
You should have full annexed Orissa. The reason they became Mings vassal is some strange behavior with the whole tributary thing.
Ming was the Overlord of the Overlord of Mongolia. So the game goes full spasm sometimes.



If Russia tries to go independent that means their LD is over 50%. Which means they wont do jack in a war against France.
The ymain problem here is that the large Russia will keep you from getting much WS by occuping France proper.
Had you cut Russia down twice allready that would be less pronounced. What you could (have) try/tried is have France break all of its alliances or support Russias independence yourself.

Ming (184,610), Russian (158,000), Ottomans (112,167), Vijaynagar (84,000), France (64,000)

Numbers arent everything. Russias troops shouldnt be that good, Mind should be behind in tech, same with Viyai, France is a joke if they really only field that much.
The Janissaries buff alone is worth the better part of the Quality ideagroup.

but the Djerid vassal also has Hostile Core Creation Cost and you're going to pay for all his state provinces.

That whole area has ICC, it doenst matter which Vassal you take there.

 

[Rikissa]

That's why I would core it directly and only make territorial cores.

 

[doyen_1975]

The Ming are a problem because when their tributaries get mad because of aggressive expansion, you can't attack them without drawing in Ming. The Ming can destroy me as Ottomans. I tried to go head-to-head with them in my 3rd and 4th runs. In both cases I was badly crushed, and had to abandon the run. Since I started trying to do this a couple months ago, the Ming have easily been the most troublesome thing. They make tributaries of countries in India, forcing me to fight Ming if I want to expand into India, or their tributaries get mad when I expand near them, forming a coalition, which again brings Ming into direct conflict with me. This is the first run I've done where I wasn't either blocked by Ming, or forced to fight Ming directly.

Persia exploded from one province I released. It took me a very long time to reduce their liberty desire. I started the vassalization process as soon as I got their liberty desire under control. Even then, it took me almost 45 years to annex them.

I have tried to use vassals as you described.

The reason I haven't hit Russia yet is because my manpower has been low, and theirs never has. Also, juggling multiple fronts and truce timers, I haven't had any time to hit them.

Thanks for your many insightful comments. You seem to be saying that high development provinces should be prioritized over low development provinces. I'll try that next run, and hopefully that will make it easier. This game I was prioritizing getting a direct border with Ming, and eating their tributaries, since that is what had stopped me both previous runs.

Thanks for your detailed response. It was quite useful.

 

[Vulkandrache]

Persia exploded from one province I released. It took me a very long time to reduce their liberty desire. I started the vassalization process as soon as I got their liberty desire under control. Even then, it took me almost 45 years to annex them.

You release Persia from a QQ province at some point in the first 10-20 years of the game. You immediatly attack Timmy in reconquest.
Do that twice and Persia has most of its land back. Before the second war you can start the integration.

Alternatively, if you know the game mechanics well enough, you can make Timmy collapse to rebels, giving Persia most or all of their cores without them getting LD from it.
I would put that under intermediate to advanced stuff, something one might want to practice normal with the help of the console first.

Waiting for Persian land to defect to them is fucked up. If you do that you are better of not getting Persia as a Vassal in the first place; just attacking them normaly.

I was prioritizing getting a direct border with Ming

You can get as much border as you want, as long as you are still a tribuary it doenst matter.
Ming is not going to get weaker if you just do nothing.

aggressive expansion

The big question:
Are you still empire rank after becoming a tributary? Do you still have 3 diplomats. Did you use those to keep people out of coalitions?
Ive had countries sitting at +2 relations with over 80 AE for years until i was finally able to keep them truce locked.

They make tributaries of countries in India

Viyai is propably not one. They would have been your prime target.

You seem to be saying that high development provinces should be prioritized over low development provinces

You should proritize high dev states and areas with good tradegoods for money. You should prioritize TC regions if you can, because they are retardedly strong.

I look at your screenshot and i wonder why you let Kilwa take all the awesome land in east Africa. The goldmines, the TCs for manpower, the monopoly over a defacto endnode.
You stopped at the border of the Aden node which is like intercrural instead of penetration.

The Ming can destroy me as Ottomans.

There are multiple ways to go about that.

In my game starting as Karaman i was a Tributary at the start aswell. Some time after canceling it around 1540 i attack Gujarat as an ally of Jarkhand.
Jarkhand is a Tributary but Ming doesnt get called in even if you set co-be. That way i got the tentacle through their land.
It touches Ming in only one place but that is enough to drop Mandate by ~0.3 per month. By the time i was willing to fight them they had been at 0 for ages.
If you have the slightest bit of advantage in troop quality you can get 5-10/1 K/D against Ming at 0 Mandate.

As far as my screenshot goes, this is stretching the expansion as much as im willing to micromanage while keeping my sanity intact.
I could go harder if i didnt want to save Dip for the One-Culture, therefore i coldnt vassal feed as much.

 

[lolada]

You have done quite well in Asia, but you really need to focus India - leave everything and go conquer it completely. Thats major source of money for you till the end of the game.

Another important thing, since you already in north Africa, go attack either Portugal, Castille or Aragon and take some land in Iberia. Attack one of them whenever you can - every few years - and in peace deal take all their islands, colonies and some of their mainland. That should be low AE and score, just don't go too high on AE to avoid coalitions. This will make your game much easier, rather than letting them colonize as much as they can. Don't go to greedy, you should commit to europe only when you are ready to commit to it till the end.

If you wait too much you will be sieging level 8 forts all over the map.

 

[Virupaksha]

Quantity>Offensive. If you have just started offensive drop it for quantity.

But guide for 4th idea group is about 1575. You must keep up in admin tech as admin efficiency means taking more land. first admin efficiency comes about 1625 (admin tech 17, wiki says 1622). You cannot afford to delay this tech. If you are behind in admin stop conquering and catch up.

 

[Vulkandrache]

Its 1609.
The techpage in the Wiki has been wrong for ages. All the unlock dates are off by one cycle.
It easy to see with tech 10, which everyone knows comes in 1518.

 

[Virupaksha]

Its 1609.
The techpage in the Wiki has been wrong for ages. All the unlock dates are off by one cycle.
It easy to see with tech 10, which everyone knows comes in 1518.

Yes thinking about it you are quite right. Some-one should correct this.

So for the OP spend no more admin until you have this tech, will save you in the long run.

 

[JRRThorald]

You should think about preventing colonizers from colonizing as it would be much more land for you to conquer once they settled Americas. I think you should take out Iberians for now and use their land to build up and go after Ming later since their tech will get weaker as eras progress.

It could be even too late to stop iberians and other colonizers by now so if you start over I suggest to begin conquest with Iberia

 

[Rikissa]

Killing colonizers is pretty outdated advice, nowadays it doesn't take a lot of time to clean up the Americas.

 

[pedrito_elcabra]

Killing colonizers is pretty outdated advice, nowadays it doesn't take a lot of time to clean up the Americas.

My thoughts exactly. You can force colonizers to concede colonial regions wholesale.

It becomes (marginally) more difficult though when CNs get independence, so in the first few wars with the colonizers I try to take their colonies, leaving my CNs in control of the Americas and I then never have to worry about the continent anymore.

 

[doyen_1975]

Thanks for the useful suggestions.

I did not accept the Janissaries event. I accepted it my first two runs, but the costs seemed very high. Was that a mistake? Is it worth it to take Janissaries, and deal with the costs and disaster?

 

[Vulkandrache]

Im neither making fun of anything nor am i being an ass.
I simply wrote the first thing that came to mind after reading your post.

The combat bonuses from the Janissaries modifier alone are stronger than what many countries have in their entire NI set.
And you get all that for the cost of a few 100 ducats every few decades.
If you really think that is

costs seemed very high

then maybe you need to work on your economic skills first instead of taking advice on how to expand faster.

The Ottomans are one of the countries capable of making real amounts of money right after the start of the game.
The Anatolian region is good development, the tradenode is very good as soon as you take out most of the small fry in Ragusa.
You have alot of weak countries to attack early, all of which have money which can be put into early churches.
Once you have Persia under control, be it by annexation or straight conquest you can start funneling the Silk money into Aleppo.
With the Mamluks as your punching bag the Alexandria node is easy to secure,so there should be no leaked money to Venice and Genoa.

Can you post a screenshot or two of your financial situation.

 

[doyen_1975]

No worries.

I've played a bit further now, and captured almost all of the Indian centers of trade.

My main trade city is Constantinople. I did capture Venice early on, and I own it, but due to alliance issues, I haven't expanded to take Ragusa or any of the lands in the Venice trade region:

I just got a new merchant and tried putting him in Crimea because so much money was getting pushed towards Kiev.

However, it doesn't seem to have made a huge difference, so while I was typing this I moved him down to Zanzibar to collect, since I just finished more expansion into Kilwa:

I must admit I didn't build any churches. I have only built marketplaces in CoT's (and upgraded them to trade depots), and I've also built workshops on some of my silk, copper, and ivory. I didn't start making money until about 10 years ago though, because hadn't expanded into India, so I have a lot to build. I had been planning to build workshops on all my cloth, copper, iron, ivory, cocoa, dye, sugar, cotton, and coffee, and then build manufacturies in all those places too.

I didn't know that I needed to build churches at all. I watched about 15 hours of videos on trade an economics in EU4 before starting the first run, but what I listed in the previous paragraph was the most important thing I thought I learned.

I guess I thought I could just ignore tax revenue and focus entirely on trade revenue. But that didnt' work well this game, given that I spent until 1600 barely breaking even.

 

[Virupaksha]

There are three main reasons for feeding vassals.

First is that for accepted culture land which you want to full core and state it is cheaper to vassalise and annex than full core using admin. However if you are vassalising for this you want to annex asap as you are not getting the (economic) benefit of the land until you do.

Second reason (if you have Art of War DLC which I don't) is that you can use reconquest CB to take the vassal's cores but I'm not sure as Coptic Ottomans whether this has much advantage over Deus Vult.

Third reason is simply to split coring costs between admin and diplo points.

Your vassals look too big to me and particularly with the increased coring costs pointed out above they are going to take a lot of diiplo points to annex. I would be cautious about feeding them any more land. Persia has some good land and is the one you need to annex as you are not getting the economic and military benefits of owning the land. My rule of thumb is to look to annex once the vassal has about 100 development otherwise the annexation ties up diplo points for too long. Current game (France, 1670) I am in the process of annexing the tenth vassal and have another 3 vassals plus Bohemia in PU to annex after that.

Admin tech 17 as discussed above is a watershed point in the game. Prior to this the main objective is to become an economic powerhouse. Get up to the state limit with accepted culture and build your temples, workshops, marketplaces and manufactories so you can run level 3 advisors for the rest of the game. Conquering starts in earnest once admin 17 has been reached. You have done well to complete two admin idea groups prior to this date but if that is at the cost of being late for this tech you need to consolidate now and get the admin tech back on course.

Even as Ottomans exploration is a very powerful group. I have 16 merchants in 1670 which helps my income no end. In your situation conquering CNs can get you some of those merchants (though the AI has hardly done any colonising yet looking at the map). I would be looking to attack Castille and Portugal for their colonies. take five colonies in each colonial region initially and once they are cored you have a CN and no further coring costs in that colonial region. You need 10 colonies for the merchant however so either take ten in one war but core only five or do it in two wars.

Sorry but that Djerid looks horrible. You want that land only as territorial cores so are vastly overpaying for it. Also I may be wrong but it looks like it is potentially blocking you having a CB on Iberia.

Other place I would be attacking is Vijayanagar. Indians should be behind in tech in 1600 (unless in this case they've got the institutions from you). Later they tend to catch up. Also the Ceylon node is an obvious one for the Ottomans, Vijay will be collecting most of the income running through here as it stands.