That is why the Germans moved their U-Boot bases to France ASAP, and every good U-Boot savvy person does after Vichy.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
That is why the Germans moved their U-Boot bases to France ASAP, and every good U-Boot savvy person does after Vichy.
Of course, but I usually raid before Vichy. And to get your uboats into the Atlantic you have to micromanage them north around GB every times because if you don't, they take the shortest path, which is the channel.
Even rebasing to western France needs this micromanagement around GB, but at least you have to do this only once.
I say that there should be change to subs - offmap or like convoys. Just build them have em i pool and manage as offmap assigned too regions.
Thats in HOI2 terms, in real life it would have been quite the opposite, had any of Germany's real ships managed to get into the Atlantic after France had fallen, the damage would have been far greater then the U-boats of 41 and onwards.
The only real ship to get out convoy raiding for a long period of time was the Admiral Scheer. But most importantly you have to look at what happened when there was a threat. When the Admiral Graf Spee was unleashed, Britain essentially stopped convoys from mvoing anywhere near her. Or look at the Bismarck, Britain quite literally moved everything they had to stop it. Probably becuase had it found one convoy, it would have destroyed it. ANd look at the St Naziare raid of 1942. Scharnhorst and the bunch are also similar, but were only used effectivly off Norway.
The simple fact is, had any of the large surface raiders got into the Atlantic (And Germany still holds onto the French ports) they would have cuase utter chaos. The Bismarck was essentially better then any British battleship escorting in 1941. Nelson and Rodney were too far off.
A U-boat is beaten by a destroyer. An entire convoy is beaten by 8 15inch guns of a battleship.
The orders would be scatter whilst thye escort, close and distant, sacrificed itself in order to buy the convoy time. PQ17 is a great example of why a surface raider would have had a far more limited effect on its own than you suggest. But, and here is the big one, a surface raider can break apart a convoy making its constituent parts easy meat for subs and aircraft.
K
You really need to research more on less effective surface raiders were. You also over estimate the effectiveness of the Bismarck on its own. The United States sunk or severely damaged many Japanese battleships in world war two by totally insane and reckless destroyer captains. The British fleet would not have taken long to totally destroy the entire Kriegsmarine surface fleet with aircraft and surface ships in a matter of months if they went out into the open sea.
Apparently so, I just think 8 15 inch guns are going to be mildly supieror to 6 destroyers ...
However, Britain was worried enough about it, look what they did to prevent it getting into the Atlantic. They moved everything they had (HMS Ark Royal was brought all the way from a mediterranean mission, which left a convoy almost completly unescorted. Britain therefore was more worried about the Bismarck then the entire Regia Marina.
How effective it would have been is leess of the issue, the main issue was the threat. The Bismarck could have very easily destroyed an entire convoy. Something a U-boat would have found impossible.
British destoyers had less luck against capital ships though, different doctrines. Besides, unlike the USA, Britain didn't have any destroyers to waste, only when they were sinking (I.E HMS Glowworm) did they try this, but that didn't even sink a cruiser, let alone one of the most protected ships afloat.
Possibly so, but in those few months, most convoys would be suspended, or rerouted miles off. However, by 1941 this could be abit late, but the threat was very real.
My argument is simply saying that, at the start of the war, the surface raiding doctrine was too terrible, well, better then 300 Type II and VIIa's floating around.
edit:
Convoy ships travel at around 9knts top speed, Bismarck was a little faster then that. They whole point is that it endangered convoys, convoys therefore had to be bigger, took more type to setup, required more destroyers, this took additional time. Of course, by 1941 this isn't as big an issue then in 1940 ...
True. But by the time Bismark has been detected, managed to fight its way through the Escort, and assuming it is reasonable weather (I assume you are talking North Atlantic) then it might bag a few ships. That's it. Meanwhile, you could see a scenario similar to Vian with Littorio where it is totally frustrated by the cruisers or other Escorting ships to the extent she just gives up. I know you are probably thinking of a nicely bunched convoy and Bismark then appears on the horizon...probably a tad unrealistic.
Yes, of course resources were stripped from everywhere to stop her. But the Brits only had to sink her once and the threat goes away. Given the mechanical trouble that the German Capital ships and destroyers perennially suffered from, the absence of aggressive spirit (which the RN had in spades) and wholly unattainable expectations placed upon the Kriegsmarine I am not sure if they would have really done any better than they did.
K
6 destroyers is up to 48 torpedoes + reloads. Its also extreemly agile ships that can spread out and are almost impossible to hit before they are close enough to fire back. Bismarck only had 4 mainguns, but 8 barrels.
One thing is for sure. If Bismarck encountered a convoy with 6 destroyers acting the same way that the american ones at Leyte acted he would not go out undamaged, and he would not be able to fire on the other convoy ships before they fled and scattered in the opposite direction.
On topic I think that only surface ships should need to go back for fuel since submarines are so easilly abstracted in flotillas and often had so much longer range to begin with. Subs can aslo travel in much more safety than surface ships.
Last edited:
So all of the convoys escorts are going to leave the convoy? ... Sounds a tad dangerous
But back on topic ...
So all of the convoys escorts are going to leave the convoy? ... Sounds a tad dangerous
But back on topic ...
Of course they would leave the convoy, it's not like they will be looking for U-Boots when a Battleship is looming over. The convoy will split in all directions and the Bismarck would not have time to chase them all down when 6 destroyers would put up a smoke screen before going after the Bismarck and would most likely cripple her, especially at night before they went down.
Odds are good too they would start sending Battleships with convoys too. The Bismarck was a great ship, but it was just her and the Tirpitz of their class and no other Battleships even close to their power in the Kriegsmarine.
Like said earlier, they only had to sink the Bismarck once and the threat was gone.
Battleships did escort convoys when German capital ships were loose. For example, the presence of HMS Ramillies discouraged Lütjens from attacking convoy HX-106 during operation Berlin, and the same happened when his task force sighted HMS Malaya off West Africa some time later.
That same operation is illustrative of how effective German capital ships would be at harassing convoys, as Gneisenau and Scharnhorst only managed to sink a few ships before convoys scattered. That would have only got worse as the war went on as radar would give the Brits advanced notice of an impending raid and growing number of escorts would delay pursuit.
That same operation is illustrative of how effective German capital ships would be at harassing convoys, as Gneisenau and Scharnhorst only managed to sink a few ships before convoys scattered. That would have only got worse as the war went on as radar would give the Brits advanced notice of an impending raid and growing number of escorts would delay pursuit.
I am not sure what you mean by the German suface ships being more effective later in the war because of growing number of escourts, plus the German suface ships would have been sunk earlier, especially when the Royal Navy had more carriers.
Since the days of wooden ships, battleliners were intended for sea control, while smaller, stealth ships were intended for sea denial.
A stranglment of Britain with a surface battle fleet weaker than RN is unthinkable, while 600 U booten in late 1940 (roughly the equivalent of the Bismark-Tirpitz BBs) could possibly have done the job.
The mith of Bismark is largely due to the fact of having sunk the Hood in a tw0 vs two battle.
A stranglment of Britain with a surface battle fleet weaker than RN is unthinkable, while 600 U booten in late 1940 (roughly the equivalent of the Bismark-Tirpitz BBs) could possibly have done the job.
The mith of Bismark is largely due to the fact of having sunk the Hood in a tw0 vs two battle.
600 U-Boots would have totally stopped about 90% of shipping given 1940's ASW technology. They would be so overkill for shipping that they would start actively seeking out warships in the channel for Seelowe I bet.