Convoy raiding missions need to have the units return home.

[krieger11b]

One of the most unrealistic things about convoy raiding was I could send out U-Boots and Bombers indefinetely, ignoring the whole reason the U-boot fleet never managed to starve England, only about a third were out to see at any given time, 1/3 were traveling to/from raiding areas (perticularly later on when aircrafts ranges increased) 1/3 were being refited/repaired, leaving only about a third actually out there convoy hunting.

With convoy raiding seeming to be more important in the next game, I think we need to rethink the fact ships never need to go home to port other than to repair (in any mission).

 

[Evie HJ]

In theory, I agree with you, that's how it historically was

In practice, this means you would have to carefully set up your submarine patrols so when the first wave sub have to come back home, the second wave is nearly deployed, and the third almost ready to leave port. That would require quite some micro-management, and not for the best.

Probably it would be best to abstract this in some way. Or else automated beyond simply automating the mission.

 

[Bullfrog]

So type II subs only carry 5 torpedos? Well then, get back to base each time you hit a convoy... it would be too much PITA to have this, only necessary if each sub flotilla was 1 submarine, which it is not.

 

[krieger11b]

Well maybe we just need to either, one, make them less effective, or two, make convoy escourts more than just another number to show up on the convoy raid sucessful pop up and actually hurt the U-boots. Historically 95% of the time a sub was sunk by a surface ship, it was a convoy escourt, the hunter-killer groups that actively searched out U-Boots were very innefective since the U-boot could hear them from waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy farther than the H-K group could detect them and they would move away. The only effective way to hunt a submarine isn't already hunting you is with aircraft.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Well maybe we just need to either, one, make them less effective, or two, make convoy escourts more than just another number to show up on the convoy raid sucessful pop up and actually hurt the U-boots. Historically 95% of the time a sub was sunk by a surface ship, it was a convoy escourt, the hunter-killer groups that actively searched out U-Boots were very innefective since the U-boot could hear them from waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy farther than the H-K group could detect them and they would move away.

How do you know that each flotilla doesn't cost 3 times as much IC already to reflect your 1/3 efficiency? After all they only do get about 3 sea attack in HoI2.

Remember that a uboat isn't expensive to make, German docks made 2 Battleships and 1337 uboats. A uboat only had about 40-50 crew and could sink huge amounts off tonnage as well as capital ships with thousands of men crew, so I don't think they are too effective at all. More like the opposite if you consider later models that didn't see action until the war was over.

What I do agree wtih you on is that Escorts should have more teeth and be able to fire back, damaging or sinking subs.

I think "returning home" is below the scope of the game.

 

[krieger11b]

How do you know that each flotilla doesn't cost 3 times as much IC already to reflect your 1/3 efficiency? After all they only do get about 3 sea attack in HoI2.

Remember that a uboat isn't expensive to make, German docks made 2 Battleships and 1337 uboats. A uboat only had about 40-50 crew and could sink huge amounts off tonnage as well as capital ships with thousands of men crew, so I don't think they are too effective at all. More like the opposite if you consider later models that didn't see action until the war was over.

What I do agree wtih you on is that Escorts should have more teeth and be able to fire back, damaging or sinking subs.

I think "returning home" is below the scope of the game.

I really doubt they cost 3 times as much when I can field a large army and an insane amount of U-boots by 1939.

Another point to remember is that 3/4 of U-boot crews died in WW2, how often do we every lose a sub flotilla? Every few months when it accidently runds into a CV uberstack?

 

[Alex_brunius]

I really doubt they cost 3 times as much when I can field a large army and an insane amount of U-boots by 1939.

Another point to remember is that 3/4 of U-boot crews died in WW2, how often do we every lose a sub flotilla? Every few months when it accidently runds into a CV uberstack?

Actually Ive had DD Arma 1.2 games where ive lost 200 german uboat flotillas without trace, most of them to modern Allied destroyers. Yeah thats what happens when subs get 4 sea attack late war vs destroyers with 12 sub attack

But lets study the IC cost again too. You get roughly 15 Type IX uboat flotillas for a single Bismarck Battleship in HoI2 terms. If we compare the crews we should have around 50 uboats per Battleships. Matches pretty good with 3uboats per flotilla.

Whats wrong with assuming each flotilla only have 1 of its 3 subs patrolling?

The reason uboats can be amassed are because they were a very cheap and effective weapon. Germany entered the war with around 30 uboats so just imagined the shock UK would have gotten if doenitz "300" uboats by the start of war to win the battle of the atlantic would be chosen instead of the surface fleet doctrine?

 

[unmerged(56754)]

imagined the shock UK would have gotten if doenitz "300" uboats by the start of war

Imagine the shcok the UK would have gotten if the Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhost, Admiral Hipper, Admiral Scheer, Emden, Prince Eugen and Graf Spee had all gotten into the Atlantic for a long period of time?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Thats why we both play HoI right? So we can enjoy those moments?

The strategy of Subs are one of attrition, and surface fleets are one of direct battles and total denial of routes. I Hope these aspects of convoy raiding will be modelled in HoI3.

 

[Meothar]

Having to go back to the port would mean you have to micromanage your uboats north around GB every month because otherwhile they would go through the "4 sea areas, 120 ships and a lot of aircraft" channel every time. Please, don't include this "feature"!

 

[krieger11b]

Imagine the shcok the UK would have gotten if the Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhost, Admiral Hipper, Admiral Scheer, Emden, Prince Eugen and Graf Spee had all gotten into the Atlantic for a long period of time?

Imagine the shock Germany would have gotten when most of them would be artifical reefs within 6 months because the in open battle the Royal Navy would have massacured them because their fleet was over 10X as large and they had aircraft carriers.

The most effect the German fleet could have had was with what they were doing, fleet-in-being, forcing the enemy Navy to act in certain way as a precaution to what your Navy might do if it actually went outside port, instead of giving them the decisive victory they needed to act more freely.

Have you ever tried to use what little of a surface naval fleet Germany can build by 1939 (with enough land units to win in France, and still have hope for the USSR later) and then sent them out convoy raiding? In 6 months or less your Kriegsmarine is making a whole lot of undersea creatures a nice new home with less IC days worth of convoys destroyed and nothing but Navs/Tacs left to harrass British convoys until Barbarossa is over with.

 

[krieger11b]

Having to go back to the port would mean you have to micromanage your uboats north around GB every month because otherwhile they would go through the "4 sea areas, 120 ships and a lot of aircraft" channel every time. Please, don't include this "feature"!

No it would be more like aircraft missions, you don't have to order your aircraft back to base after a days mission each time.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Arguably single surface raiders and capital ships in general should have to do that. But destroyers and subs are groups of ships, so one may as well imagine that not all of them are on station at all times.

But yeah, ships cruising around forever should be impossible. Not so much because of the logistics, but presumably because they have to be serviced. I doubt Yamato could sail for a year without anything breaking down beyond the ability of the crew to repair. Even if it was constantly resupplied by tankers and such.

 

[koontz]

Imagine the shock Germany would have gotten when most of them would be artifical reefs within 6 months because the in open battle the Royal Navy would have massacured them because their fleet was over 10X as large and they had aircraft carriers.

The most effect the German fleet could have had was with what they were doing, fleet-in-being, forcing the enemy Navy to act in certain way as a precaution to what your Navy might do if it actually went outside port, instead of giving them the decisive victory they needed to act more freely.

Have you ever tried to use what little of a surface naval fleet Germany can build by 1939 (with enough land units to win in France, and still have hope for the USSR later) and then sent them out convoy raiding? In 6 months or less your Kriegsmarine is making a whole lot of undersea creatures a nice new home with less IC days worth of convoys destroyed and nothing but Navs/Tacs left to harrass British convoys until Barbarossa is over with.

Word!

 

[krieger11b]

Word!

I did do one game where I decided to do a very, very late Barbarossa, yeah didn't end too well. Anyways I built up quite a nice modern fleet to do serious convoy raiding. I tell you what, a fleet with 4 LvL SBBs, 8 LvL 4 CAs with escourts can get some insane convoy destruction around Gibralta. I think I sunk like 22 convoy ships and 8 escourts in one raid LOL!

 

[th3freakie]

Have you ever tried to use what little of a surface naval fleet Germany can build by 1939 (with enough land units to win in France, and still have hope for the USSR later) and then sent them out convoy raiding? In 6 months or less your Kriegsmarine is making a whole lot of undersea creatures a nice new home with less IC days worth of convoys destroyed and nothing but Navs/Tacs left to harrass British convoys until Barbarossa is over with.

*scratches head*

...I do it every time. And it works brilliantly. Well, ok the Bismarks sometimes only really roll in after Vichy but they still make a killing out of the RN!

Even my lonely Battlecruisers usually sink enough CL's and DD's to compensate the cost. Plus they're cooler then cool.

 

[Khevenhuller]

There is a serious issue here regarding surface ship refits caused by accidents and mechanical breakdowns. Ships ran into each other, needed boiler and engine maintenance or ran into mines (something totally absent yet critical to naval warfare).

No ideas OTTOMH, but need considering...

K

 

[Alexander Seil]

There is already a system in place in EU3 forcing ships to return to port - eventually you start suffering from attrition. Same system should apply to ships in HoI3. Those permanent voyages are pretty strange, to say the least.

Alternatively, you could have a duration meter that would force the ship to return to nearest port and have it replenish with supplies and fuel.

In any case, there are sure to be changes here, since the whole naval model is gutted and rebuilt.

 

[NikkTheTrick]

No it would be more like aircraft missions, you don't have to order your aircraft back to base after a days mission each time.

I think Meothar referred to the fact that U-boats would automatically choose the crappiest routes home that will get them killed (I assume "4 seazones, 120 ships and a lot of aircraft" referres to U-boats taking a short route though English Channel). So, we would have to manually re-route them, which is a LOT of clicking.

 

[berhaven]

Actually I think HOI3 should go exactly the opposite way for submarine strategic warfare.
I'd rather see a kind of "mission box" where a submarine (or a surface fleet, or a aviation stack) with the mission attack convoys is fully automated to leave the base, follow a patrol route, go back to replenish/repair and go back to mission when ready. On an individual basis in order to avoid the annoying fact of "sending out the stack again" (or, worse, leave it in port) when it goes back to base because 1 single unit is badly damaged.