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ltccone

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I hope fixing this is a priority for 1.5, as I had to quit a game because of it.

I was playing a game as Germany in Expert AI and I was doing well. You really don't want to invade the UK before the USSR in this mod, so I defeated the USSR first.

The was a Brit doomstack of 100 ships in the Channel so I thought I would try to whittle down the fleet with air power. LVL 3 radar covered the Channel

In 7 days I lost 134 CAS/NAV. In 14 days I lost 277. In one month I lost 588. In 6 weeks, 747. In three months I lost 1508. I didn't have one NAV left.

I'm not a masochist, but I wanted to keep going to see if this would change; it didn't.

Of those air losses I lost a total of SIXTY to bombing warships. All the rest were lost to convoy AA. Some of the convoys had 3 to 4 hundred convoy ships and would shoot down a score of planes at one time.

After wasting three months trying to control the Channel, the US joined the Allies.

I rage quit.
 

kauzer

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You will not invade UK if you dont pay proper attension to Kriegsmarines from the start. Luftwaffe just can not solo english channel and it is good. So it is your fault.
 

ltccone

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You will not invade UK if you dont pay proper attension to Kriegsmarines from the start. Luftwaffe just can not solo english channel and it is good. So it is your fault.
So it is 'my fault' that convoys shot down over 1400 planes in three months? The Axis controls all of Asia, Europe, and most of Africa in1941. I think we are doing OK.
 

Cpack

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You will not invade UK if you dont pay proper attension to Kriegsmarines from the start. Luftwaffe just can not solo english channel and it is good. So it is your fault.
But that doesn't explain why 1.400 planes where lost due to convoys.

If its due to warships or fighters, that would be ok if there were lack of fighter coverage over the channel......but convoys:confused:
 

ltccone

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But that doesn't explain why 1.400 planes where lost due to convoys.

If its due to warships or fighters, that would be ok if there were lack of fighter coverage over the channel......but convoys:confused:
Exactly. Many of the convoys were huge 300-400 ships. And I never sunk ONE convoy. I did manage to damage and sink warships.
 

grandad1982

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You will not invade UK if you dont pay proper attension to Kriegsmarines from the start. Luftwaffe just can not solo english channel and it is good. So it is your fault.
I think you missed the point.

As the UK I abused this by sending troop convoys back and forth through the red sea. It's not conquered Ethiopia so the axis tried to bomb those convoys but lost planes to no losses for me!
 

ltccone

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I think you missed the point.

As the UK I abused this by sending troop convoys back and forth through the red sea. It's not conquered Ethiopia so the axis tried to bomb those convoys but lost planes to no losses for me!
Wow. That's one way to shoot down enemy planes!
 

billcorr

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I think you missed the point.

As the UK I abused this by sending troop convoys back and forth through the red sea. It's not conquered Ethiopia so the axis tried to bomb those convoys but lost planes to no losses for me!
If it happened in a multiplayer game, I can hear your helpless opponents praising you for your imagination and creativity.

"Well done, Bob! Well played! "

...not.

:confused:
 

Axe99

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I've never noticed convoy AA being near that dangerous - and I usually have some NAVs on anti-convoy duty in most games somewhere. That said, I haven't played vanilla in a little while now (since 1.4.2 was released), so I may have forgotten something.
 

ltccone

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I've never noticed convoy AA being near that dangerous - and I usually have some NAVs on anti-convoy duty in most games somewhere. That said, I haven't played vanilla in a little while now (since 1.4.2 was released), so I may have forgotten something.
The problem was that the UK convoys in the Channel were huge, numbering 3 to 4 hundred.
 

Axe99

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The problem was that the UK convoys in the Channel were huge, numbering 3 to 4 hundred.
Aye, but my understanding was the AA mechanic was one plane vs one ship, so in theory, as I understand it (which could be way out), aircraft should still be overpowering convoys shouldn't it? Or do I need to brush up my understanding of air vs ships?
 

ltccone

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Aye, but my understanding was the AA mechanic was one plane vs one ship, so in theory, as I understand it (which could be way out), aircraft should still be overpowering convoys shouldn't it? Or do I need to brush up my understanding of air vs ships?
I don't know. I do know those huge convoys were shooting down 20 planes at a clip, and while a lot of convoys were damaged, none were getting sunk.
 

grandad1982

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As far as I recall convoys don't retain damage either so if the plants fail to kill them they are magically ok next time they are hit.
 

Meglok

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Aye, but my understanding was the AA mechanic was one plane vs one ship, so in theory, as I understand it (which could be way out), aircraft should still be overpowering convoys shouldn't it? Or do I need to brush up my understanding of air vs ships?
There is a problem with something PDS did in 1.4 regarding convoys and naval air attacks. Naval air alone can not harm convoys and convoy aa for some reason now seems to be stacking or causing inordinate amounts of damage. You have to have some type of sea attack combined with the naval air attack to be effective.

The problem is that any naval air patrolling a sea zone alone will repeatedly attack any convoys transiting the sea zone and suffer aa casualties while only doing % damage without sinking any convoys or causing any disruption. You literally can not leave land based air patrolling any sea zone where an enemy convoy may be transiting unless you have ships there also or your bombers will be atrittioned to zero.

This screws both German, Japanese, and Italian strategies of using land based bombers to whittle down enemy fleets.
 

EntropyAvatar

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So naval AA is ineffective except in the one situation where it SHOULD be ineffective. That figures.
 

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Hmm. That's odd.

Make sure you post a bug report on it. I don't think convoys, even 400 ship convoys, should be able to do that to aircraft.
 

dasaard200

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Possible idea : A fleet of Subs and DD's on convoy raiding under an air umbrella, perhaps ?
 

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Some of the convoys had 3 to 4 hundred convoy ships and would shoot down a score of planes at one time.
Wait, wait, wait.

Why are there that many convoys in the Channel? What is the AI doing in the Expert AI mod that would cause there to be 400 ship convoys in the area?
 

Axe99

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As far as I recall convoys don't retain damage either so if the plants fail to kill them they are magically ok next time they are hit.
This is indeed an issue (sorry, I forgot it earlier) - so it could well be that a whole heap of convoys are getting badly damaged, and shooting down aircraft as well, but that the convoys auto-repair and the aircraft are gone. @lttcone - my bet is this is what is happening.

There is a problem with something PDS did in 1.4 regarding convoys and naval air attacks. Naval air alone can not harm convoys and convoy aa for some reason now seems to be stacking or causing inordinate amounts of damage. You have to have some type of sea attack combined with the naval air attack to be effective.

The problem is that any naval air patrolling a sea zone alone will repeatedly attack any convoys transiting the sea zone and suffer aa casualties while only doing % damage without sinking any convoys or causing any disruption. You literally can not leave land based air patrolling any sea zone where an enemy convoy may be transiting unless you have ships there also or your bombers will be atrittioned to zero.

This screws both German, Japanese, and Italian strategies of using land based bombers to whittle down enemy fleets.
I've definitely had naval air (NAVs) sink convoys post 1.4 in vanilla, but you do see far more instances of partially damaged convoys that auto-repair before their next battle. Random though - but perhaps whatever adjustments they did to naval air to balance it vs ships for long battles means they're no longer sinking as many convoys (and getting hammered in the meantime) in short ones?