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Yazman

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That might create a problem in places where the flag and shield feature a cross.

Its pretty rare that a invader will adopt the local culture, unless they're placed on the throne by a lower revolt. In some cases it makes sense, because a Levantine Catholic King wouldn't just up and adopt Frankish styles simply because hes Catholic. And, also, religion has a lot less depth than culture. You'd see Armenians wearing African garb. Religion wouldn't necessarily change the cloths.

They should redesign how this works, though, so that Muslim women wear veils even in European cultures, and so that Sultans will wear turbans.

That doesn't make sense. Veils are peculiar to certain cultures and are by no means a part of Islam. Covering the face isn't common at all in the Islamic world outside of a few countries. and it wouldn't make sense at all to make all Muslim women wear veils. There are different clothes in different cultures.

As far as making all Sultans wear turbans - that's kind of ridiculous too given that turbans aren't even an Islamic thing. Turbans are common in many cultures and are worn by people of other religions including sikhs and christians in different parts of the world.
 

Clophiroth

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Iḿ not talking about that exact veils.The one you have showed is only used in festivities. Traditional, daily veils were more similar to islamic veils, than to that.
 

Atridij

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That doesn't make sense. Veils are peculiar to certain cultures and are by no means a part of Islam. Covering the face isn't common at all in the Islamic world outside of a few countries. and it wouldn't make sense at all to make all Muslim women wear veils. There are different clothes in different cultures.

You could have fooled me bro. There are bunch of hilarious Haddiths which say that women should be covered up and for some God knows what reason that post-Quranic crap which came 250 years after the Prophet had died was accepted as "core of Islam". While you can make case that Bosniaks didn't wear veils for quite some time, you can thank the Hamziis for that, and the general Bosniak "It-isn't-in-Qur'an-you-filthy-post-Qur'anic-kaffirs" attitude about women's clothing. But Hamzii ideas only came in the 16th century and other Quraniyoon schools which are incredibly lax about women's clothing came in the 18th century.

As far as making all Sultans wear turbans - that's kind of ridiculous too given that turbans aren't even an Islamic thing.

Turbans BECAME an Islamic thing, just as Fezzes did became attached to a religion. Even those rare (incredibly historically inaccurate) representations of the Prophet included having him a turban and given the let's imitate the Prophet attitude no-matter-of-how-shabby-are-the-records-beside-Qur'an.

Turbans are common in many cultures and are worn by people of other religions including sikhs and christians in different parts of the world.

Yes they are, just as so many pieces of other clothing were non religion specific they became attached to a religion afterwards.
 

Yazman

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You could have fooled me bro. There are bunch of hilarious Haddiths which say that women should be covered up and for some God knows what reason that post-Quranic crap which came 250 years after the Prophet had died was accepted as "core of Islam". While you can make case that Bosniaks didn't wear veils for quite some time, you can thank the Hamziis for that, and the general Bosniak "It-isn't-in-Qur'an-you-filthy-post-Qur'anic-kaffirs" attitude about women's clothing. But Hamzii ideas only came in the 16th century and other Quraniyoon schools which are incredibly lax about women's clothing came in the 18th century.

Except, you're pretending that Islam is monolithic and that there aren't different denominations with different interpretations of scripture. These issues & interpretations have been debated for over a thousand years! http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/women/albani_niqab.htm

Furthermore, covering the face is like I said peculiar to certain cultures. The niqab/burka is really not that common in the muslim world overall. The hijab, which simply covers the hair and not the face, is FAR more common.

Turbans BECAME an Islamic thing, just as Fezzes did became attached to a religion. Even those rare (incredibly historically inaccurate) representations of the Prophet included having him a turban and given the let's imitate the Prophet attitude no-matter-of-how-shabby-are-the-records-beside-Qur'an.

Except they aren't. They are widely worn in many parts of the world in different cultures and there are entire religious groups like Sikhs that wear them as well. It really isn't an Islamic thing.

Yes they are, just as so many pieces of other clothing were non religion specific they became attached to a religion afterwards.

Except turbans are not attached or recognised as being specific to any one religion. They are worn by peoples who are neither sikh nor muslim in some areas, and furthermore there are parts of the world, like in southeast asia, where muslims do not commonly wear them at all.
 

Atridij

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Furthermore, covering the face is like I said peculiar to certain cultures. The niqab/burka is really not that common in the muslim world overall. The hijab, which simply covers the hair and not the face, is FAR more common.

I know that covering of the face and hair isn't required in Islam proper, but we are talking about a game set in a time period when the novelty that were Haddits were all the rage.

And South East Asia isn't even in game now, so we're just concentrating on Mediterranean Basin Muslims which wore turbans and hijjabs in the time period this game is set.

While Andalusians were native European converts (just like Bosniaks, Volga Tatars and Albos are) to Islam they did their best to imitate (language, poetry, science and fashion) the people which brought this new religion to their land.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX3UHNhQ1Zk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1PxJomypQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7Qkcyz3tM
 

Ivashanko

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...There isn't a single major branch of Islam that does not accept the Hadiths. Only the Quranists believe that the Hadiths have no place in Islam, and they are generally condemned as heretics or outright heathens by other Muslims.Those major branches disagree over the Hadiths' interpretation, but not their overall validity.

And the historical community generally accepts that Saladin was a Kurd. That doesn't mean it is settled, of course, but to say that it is greatly in doubt is disingenuous.
 

tuareg109

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In Orthodox Islam (Sunni and Shiite groups) you have a strict dress code (look up few Haddiths)

There is no strict dress code for Muslims; Hadiths come from schools of religious laws, not from the Quran, and thus no Muslim is obligated to follow them.
I'm not saying that people didn't change their dress back then, I'm just saying that they absolutely weren't obligated to. While the dress may have spread, it originated in Saudi Arabia as just a traditional form of clothing (it was effective in the desert, already traditional, etc.) from the times of polytheism. The hadiths were a tool of cultural expansion when the Caliphs realized that it would be difficult to rule such a multicultural empire.
Again, I'm not saying that people didn't change their cloths after changing their religion; just saying that the hadiths only had force where loyal, extreme troops were active (certainly not in far-flung regions like the mountainous Balkans and the mountainous Iberia).

Atridij said:
I know that covering of the face and hair isn't required in Islam proper, but we are talking about a game set in a time period when the novelty that were Haddits were all the rage.

But you just said that in that area (Bosna) the ""It-isn't-in-Qur'an-you-filthy-post-Qur'anic-kaffirs" prevailed?
 

ASPGolan

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Another example: the Hungarians lords used their own national threads until the 16th-17th century (I might be mistaken about the period, I read on it by chance a couple of months ago). They converted to catholicism and in many regards to the western culture group from the beginning of the 2nd millennia, if not earlier. When it became apparent why people still excluded them as being part of the catholic cohorts, even if they were the eastern defenders of catholicism on the expansion of ottomans, they finally changed those too.
 

Atridij

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Another example: the Hungarians lords used their own national threads until the 16th-17th century (I might be mistaken about the period, I read on it by chance a couple of months ago). They converted to catholicism and in many regards to the western culture group from the beginning of the 2nd millennia, if not earlier. When it became apparent why people still excluded them as being part of the catholic cohorts, even if they were the eastern defenders of catholicism on the expansion of ottomans, they finally changed those too.

Christian core of morality=/=Islamic code of morality.
 

Emre Yigit

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Culture or religion influencing dress are two, sometimes conflicting things.

In essence, it generally boils down to "Ooooh, that's chic" or "When in Rome...." or "Whatever works".

I love "Fulk ibn Fulk". :)

You do realize there is a difference between those veils?

KimYunainVeils.jpg


And Islamic ones which I know for a fact that they weren't worn in Iberia thanks to the Inquisition:

Bokitta+Evening+Wear+Scarves-Head+Collection+2012-13+-+Satin+And+Chiffon+Hijab+Collection+2012+-+001+-+www.Fashionhuntworld.Blogspot.com.JPG

Well, if modern depictions are anything to go by (?!?), Glenn Close would fit right in (as Eleanor of Aquitaine) with the latest 12th century Cairene fashions

image3_1226712087.jpg


though Katherine Hepburn would be a little rakish (is that possible, for a woman?),

Katharine+Hepburn+Lion+in+Winter.jpg


Eileen Atkins would be considered frumpily frightening whether in London or in Cairo,

38342942-38342945-large.jpg


and Eileen Page would be perfectly acceptable anywhere, though she would need neck braces to hold up that crown if it were made of gold rather than papier-mâché.

images
 

mudcrabmerchant

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This has been an amusing and interesting thread.

I have to agree with the OP. Regardless of the question of the actual Islamic basis for it, essentially every Islamic culture of the game's time and location adopted what had become standard Islamic dress. Now, assuming Islam reaches up to Scandinavia, perhaps some weather-induced change would occur (actually, shouldn't this same problem have affected the Altaic Muslims in the northern steppe?), but that's the only exception I can think of. To those of you getting caught up on the non-religions aspects of the dress, think of it like this: Not everyone who wore turbans or veils was a Muslim, but virtually every Muslim of the period and place wore turbans, veils, etc.

Is there a way to assign priority to certain religious aesthetics over cultural ones? If so, that might be a rather easy way to solve this.
 

Prince Michael

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This has been an amusing and interesting thread.

I have to agree with the OP. Regardless of the question of the actual Islamic basis for it, essentially every Islamic culture of the game's time and location adopted what had become standard Islamic dress. Now, assuming Islam reaches up to Scandinavia, perhaps some weather-induced change would occur (actually, shouldn't this same problem have affected the Altaic Muslims in the northern steppe?), but that's the only exception I can think of. To those of you getting caught up on the non-religions aspects of the dress, think of it like this: Not everyone who wore turbans or veils was a Muslim, but virtually every Muslim of the period and place wore turbans, veils, etc.

Is there a way to assign priority to certain religious aesthetics over cultural ones? If so, that might be a rather easy way to solve this.

I think the most urgent thing should be restricting the Catholic Levantines, Andalusians etc. naming so many sons as Muhammads. Of course many names in, say, Occitan, Greek or Swedish name directories are based on the Christian saints, but the connection to the religion and its founders and core figures is not so imminent and therefore not so immersion breaking with Occitan, Greek or Swedish Muslims.

The veil discussion: Many sources state that in Saracen Sicily the women wore veils when they went out, regardless of their ethnic origin (Arab/Maghreb, Greek, Lombard, Jewish, Norman etc.) or their respective religions (Islam, Judaism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism) and this continued long after the Muslim Arabs were replaced in the top level of society, the secular nobility. In some respects the using of "veil" continued up until the early 20th century, although of course unmodified and never in the sense of modern hijabs. I suspect the situation can't have been very different in the Muslim Spain. Not sure about men's clothing and turbans though.
 

The_Blind_One

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originaly the islamic law stated that women should be veiled if they are of noble arab blood (and all arabs have to be muslim or dead). However it sorta became chic to wear them even as lower muslim non-arab commoners. Combined with the spread of conservatism and decreased importance on being arabic in islam after the 9-10th century, the strict emphasis on islamic dress compared to kafir dress became more important to distinquish piety and was more generaly applied. Practicaly any muslima should be veiled except for courtiers and the odd exception.

It is typicaly advised to be veiled as a woman in islamic society even if one is not muslim. It is assumed that any women that fails to properly cover up is asking for a good tumble. So to prevent any unwanted kidnappings and/or extortions/forced marriages of daughters, they are advised to follow up on these principles. In christian societies it was popular for a married woman to wear a veil to represent the fact that she had already settled down or was going to get married. It was also a sign of modesty and piety similar as to how nuns cover themselves up.
 

Emre Yigit

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Honesty, I really don't know what veils have to do with being a muslim. This is a cultural thing, rather than a religious one. There are many translations of the Koran online which are slanted to fit some fundamentalist male's current view of what is permissible. There are two specific instances (24:31 and 33:59) that I can think of where women's clothes are discussed. First, I'll give any old online translation, and then my comments.

24:31 "And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed."

Admittedly, this is a really poor translation from the word go, but please concentrate on the part that I've highlighted "Illā Mā Žahara Minhā" and which I would argue (in the company of many scholars dating back centuries) does not mean "necessary" but is akin to "customary". Indeed, the whole point of this injunction is to get women to cover their breasts, for goodness sake. (Most men I know are more interested in breasts than hair.)

33:59 "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

First, the entire chapter is heavily slanted towards the treatment of, and expected behaviour from, the Prophet's wives. Second, the "veil" and "i.e." bits are again off. It is definitely "outer garments". The "i.e." bit is commentary provided by the translator.


Let me show you what, in my considered opinion, is dress forbidden to modest women in Islam by Ch.24:

joan_collins_alexis.jpg


and how women are not allowed to exit their houses in Ch.33:

dynasty-joan-collins-dynasty-20763754-809-649.jpg


(Incidentally, pretty much the same applies to men.)

Now, the Arabs having a long tradition of wrapping their women up; the entire Middle East does. It has been argued that this is originally a Sumerian tradition dating from the time of temple prostitutes, who were required to cover themselves. The greater the covering => the holier the woman. Women in Christianity "take the veil" and become nuns. It is equally a choice in Islam; there is no obligation to do it. If you have lived your life in a nudist colony, and you decide to become a muslim, you put on a dress. You don't need to wear a tent.

(I write as a dabbler in the Hanafi school of course, not one of those post-18th century innovators in Arabia.)


To return to what made me go off on this tangent the original comment

To those of you getting caught up on the non-religions aspects of the dress, think of it like this: Not everyone who wore turbans or veils was a Muslim, but virtually every Muslim of the period and place wore turbans, veils, etc. Is there a way to assign priority to certain religious aesthetics over cultural ones? If so, that might be a rather easy way to solve this.

Non-Middle-Eastern muslim women did not normally wear veils. Turkish women certainly didn't normally do so until the 15th or even 16th century, about 600 years after their embrace of Islam became widespread. As Arab influence spread, it became customary to do so. It is a cultural practice, not a religious requirement.

Sorry about the rant, but I feel strongly about this.



PS: If you think the Sumerian thing is stretching it, don't. The Sumerian god Dumuz(x) was adopted by the Babylonians, who gave the name "Month of Dumuz" to one of the months in their calendar. The deity's name is now rendered Tammuz. Which is incidentally the name of July in both the Hebrew calendar and in most of "extended" Mesopotamia, plus, with a vowel change, Turkey. Interestingly, four months prior comes the month of Nisan, which is the starting month of the Babylonian calendar and I believe (not sure about this) the religious Jewish one. (And again, used elsewhere too.) The Middle East has a lot of history and some things get passed on, without anyone really thinking about the origins of things any more.
 
Last edited:

mudcrabmerchant

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I stand corrected (though I was only speaking from what I'd read earlier in the thread; which was probably a mistake, as I don't presume to have any great knowledge of the subject myself).

Nice to come across a thread where I learn something new. Thanks for the clarification.
 

Emre Yigit

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Within the confines of the house, I heartily concur. :) Most would, I think.

Again, apologies for the tone of my earlier post.