Conversion to Islam contradictions?

[Atridij]

Hey guys I have always been wondering about one thing; Why when you convert to one of the Islamic branches as an European character they change their nation's and DYNASTY banner but remain in "kaffir clothes"?

When Persians, Balkanian aristocrats (especially) and Turkish tribes converted to Islam they didn't renounce their national/ethnical symbolism and flags, they just accepted "meta Islamic clothing" if you will.

In Bosnia Kulenovići, Hodići, Kosaće and Jamakovići (a line coming from Koloman bastards) during the Ottoman period still used their medieval house banners which were used to identify the houses of during Stanak/Divan meetings, while they adopted the traditional clothes of the Ottoman Empire.

So my plea to the dev team is that they make the clothes tied to religion and flags to be culture specific.

I find this just immersion breaking, seeing a Christian style crown on a Muslim Argonian Sultan, while a Christian Leviathan King of Syria wears an Islamic turban thing. So can we start a petition that this is included in the next patch/hot fix or am I the only one which is bothered by this glaring historic inaccuracy?

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

That might create a problem in places where the flag and shield feature a cross.

Its pretty rare that a invader will adopt the local culture, unless they're placed on the throne by a lower revolt. In some cases it makes sense, because a Levantine Catholic King wouldn't just up and adopt Frankish styles simply because hes Catholic. And, also, religion has a lot less depth than culture. You'd see Armenians wearing African garb. Religion wouldn't necessarily change the cloths.

They should redesign how this works, though, so that Muslim women wear veils even in European cultures, and so that Sultans will wear turbans.

 

[Atridij]

That might create a problem in places where the flag and shield feature a cross.

That is a problem few lines of code could fix.

And if the flags are just too much of a problem, why don't they just make the clothes religion based.

Because veiled Christian Arabic Andalusian ladies just kill the idea of a religious struggle tearing up the Old Continent.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

That is a problem few lines of code could fix.

And if the flags are just too much of a problem, why don't they just make the clothes religion based.

Because veiled Christian Arabic Andalusian ladies just kill the idea of a religious struggle tearing up the Old Continent.

Christian ladies in many places of the Levant also used the veil, during the crusades era.

As it stands now, clothes and names come from culture, but the crest / banner comes from religion. I understand that you want this to be the other way around, right? There's not much you can easily do to change that though. You can't make Muslims use Christian CoAs or vice versa. You can also not stop Muslim Croats/Bosnians/... from using Christian first names.

If you want your conversos / conversovići characters to adopt new clothes and names, you would have to mod in a whole new culture (Bosnian Muslims) and configure them to use the same face-gfx as the non-conversos, but the clothes-gfx of the conversos, and write events that make characters switch to that new culture after they change religion. You'd best ask the modding subforum how to do all of that, though, if you want to do it.

 

[NewbieOne]

Hey guys I have always been wondering about one thing; Why when you convert to one of the Islamic branches as an European character they change their nation's and DYNASTY banner but remain in "kaffir clothes"?

When Persians, Balkanian aristocrats (especially) and Turkish tribes converted to Islam they didn't renounce their national/ethnical symbolism and flags, they just accepted "meta Islamic clothing" if you will.

In Bosnia Kulenovići, Hodići, Kosaće and Jamakovići (a line coming from Koloman bastards) during the Ottoman period still used their medieval house banners which were used to identify the houses of during Stanak/Divan meetings, while they adopted the traditional clothes of the Ottoman Empire.

So my plea to the dev team is that they make the clothes tied to religion and flags to be culture specific.

I find this just immersion breaking, seeing a Christian style crown on a Muslim Argonian Sultan, while a Christian Leviathan King of Syria wears an Islamic turban thing. So can we start a petition that this is included in the next patch/hot fix or am I the only one which is bothered by this glaring historic inaccuracy?

Impressive details on Balkanian nobles!

On the other hand, crusading nobles would indeed be seen wearing eastern clothes, eating eastern food ("friend, go ahead, in my house you will find no beef"), having Arabic inscriptions on coins, being referred to as "Fulk ibn Fulk" and all that jazz. After a generation or two of tanning and with a daughter or two of neighbouring Muslim lords in the lineage, you might even in some cases have some problems telling (if they all wore similar clothes and a crucifix or some other religious symbol or a distinct knight's girdle weren't visible). "Sultan of Jerusalem" is slightly disconcerting, though ("Emir of Antioch/Tripoli" somewhat less so).

 

[Atridij]

Christian ladies in many places of the Levant also used the veil, during the crusades era.

As it stands now, clothes and names come from culture, but the crest / banner comes from religion. I understand that you want this to be the other way around, right? There's not much you can easily do to change that though. You can't make Muslims use Christian CoAs or vice versa. You can also not stop Muslim Croats/Bosnians/... from using Christian first names.

If you want your conversos / conversovići characters to adopt new clothes and names, you would have to mod in a whole new culture (Bosnian Muslims) and configure them to use the same face-gfx as the non-conversos, but the clothes-gfx of the conversos, and write events that make characters switch to that new culture after they change religion. You'd best ask the modding subforum how to do all of that, though, if you want to do it.

Modded Bosnians in my self , I don't mind using standard South Slavic names because I have never played Bosnia as a Muslim ruler but once. Mainly because we lose our traditional national symbol of Lilium bosniacum in turn for some square thingy which is historically WAY off.

CK2 and Paradox kinda disappointed me because we aren't in vanilla game, while relatively unimportant cultures like Kurds at that time were ingame

 

[Lorehead]

while relatively unimportant cultures like Kurds at that time were ingame

Yeah, who does that upstart Saladin think he is?

 

[yezhanquan]

Yeah, who does that upstart Saladin think he is?

Make that Sultan Yūsuf of Ayyūb, Righteousness of the Faith.

 

[Atridij]

Yeah, who does that upstart Saladin think he is?

His Kurdish origins are questionable, he was probably a Turk, an Arab or from an Armenian convert family.

Because during his period main Kurdish population centers were not even close to today's central Iraq or southern Turkey, areas which they came to populate after Sunni-Shiia wars in Iran itself and when Safavid fought Ottomans as part of population exchanges.

 

[yezhanquan]

I quote a footnote from Wiki:

"A number of contemporary sources make note of this. The biographer Ibn Khallikan writes, "Historians agree in stating that [Saladin's] father and family belonged to Duwin [Dvin]....They were Kurds and belonged to the Rawādiya (sic), which is a branch of the great tribe al-Hadāniya": Minorsky (1953), p. 124. The medieval historian Ibn Athir relates a passage from another commander: "...both you and Saladin are Kurds and you will not let power pass into the hands of the Turks": Minorsky (1953), p. 138."

 

[Atridij]

I quote a footnote from Wiki:

"A number of contemporary sources make note of this. The biographer Ibn Khallikan writes, "Historians agree in stating that [Saladin's] father and family belonged to Duwin [Dvin]....They were Kurds and belonged to the Rawādiya (sic), which is a branch of the great tribe al-Hadāniya": Minorsky (1953), p. 124. The medieval historian Ibn Athir relates a passage from another commander: "...both you and Saladin are Kurds and you will not let power pass into the hands of the Turks": Minorsky (1953), p. 138."

Turks and Armenians have their own sources, while let's leave the dead Sultan alone and return to the Islamic fashion of the middle ages. Which is kinda the point of the topic

 

[tuareg109]

As far as I know, clothing and style are tied to culture (which they very well should be!). I know a Muslim Albanian convert from Orthodoxy, and he doesn't even wear "traditional" Islamic (meaning medieval Arabic) clothing to mosque; he wears a suit and tie.
Do Muslims in Bosnia dress any differently than Catholics and Pravoslavci (I don't know the English word)? No, of course not, I should know

the Islamic fashion of the middle ages

Fashion isn't tied to religion. When the Franks and the Saxons and the Irish and the Lombards and the Germans and the...etc. etc. etc. were converted to Christianity, they didn't change their style of dress or their language at all (apart from priests learning and knowing Latin and wearing their bedsheet-vestments).

 

[Atridij]

As far as I know, clothing and style are tied to culture (which they very well should be!). I know a Muslim Albanian convert from Orthodoxy, and he doesn't even wear "traditional" Islamic (meaning medieval Arabic) clothing to mosque; he wears a suit and tie.

That's all fine and dandy, but we're talking about middle ages. Today there is no need for hijjabs or burqa things, because it's a later non-Quranic Islamic element (added in Haddits because of exposure to Persian/Greek fashion), but still we are talking 400 years after the collapse of Quraniyoon first Caliphate.

Do Muslims in Bosnia dress any differently than Catholics and Pravoslavci (I don't know the English word)? No, of course not, I should know

Today no, barely under 5% of Bosniaks knows more than 3 prayers let alone have the knowledge to pray on their own. While 150 years ago we did wore the Islamic/Ottoman style clothing, and we wore it exactly because of our religion.

Fashion isn't tied to religion.

Tell that to converts from/to Islam

 

[tuareg109]

That's all fine and dandy, but we're talking about middle ages. Today there is no need for hijjabs or burqa things, because it's a later non-Quranic Islamic element (added in Haddits because of exposure to Persian/Greek fashion), but still we are talking 400 years after the collapse of Quraniyoon first Caliphate.
Today no, barely under 5% of Bosniaks knows more than 3 prayers let alone have the knowledge to pray on their own. While 150 years ago we did wore the Islamic/Ottoman style clothing, and we wore it exactly because of our religion.
Tell that to converts from/to Islam

Well, see my comment about the Saxons and Franks keeping their culture and clothing after adopting Christianity (while I DO admit, Germanic peoples converting to Christianity is definitely different than Slavic peoples converting to Islam, the conversions of two Indo-European peoples to a Judaic religion can't be all THAT different).

As for your second point...yeah, I guess you're right

As I wrote, my Albanian friend converted to Islam, and he wears a suit and tie to mosque; he's never worn a fez--or, Tito forbid, a turban!--in his life.
Of course there are more extreme converts, but I'm inclined to think that these are typically non-Balkan converts.

 

[Atridij]

As I wrote, my Albanian friend converted to Islam, and he wears a suit and tie to mosque; he's never worn a fez--or, Tito forbid, a turban!--in his life.
Of course there are more extreme converts, but I'm inclined to think that these are typically non-Balkan converts.

LOL

It seems that we can't get our time frames synchronized (I believe that was a line in some 90s cheap SyFy movie), you keep talking about Albanians with fully developed in the 21. century while I talk about converts in a time period where modern concepts of nations and cultures not that affected by religions where an abstract thing.

 

[tuareg109]

LOL

It seems that we can't get our time frames synchronized (I believe that was a line in some 90s cheap SyFy movie), you keep talking about Albanians with fully developed in the 21. century while I talk about converts in a time period where modern concepts of nations and cultures not that affected by religions where an abstract thing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg
Of course. I apologize

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

People always request stuff that relates to where they're from, etc. Talk about how it affects everyone and you'll make more progress.

That said, its very desirable to me to have names, and to some extent dress, modified by religion. There are some exceptions, though. Regal names shouldn't just disappear. Various names already in place contain theonyms from outside their religion: Malcolm in Irish, Cynthia in Greek/English, etc.

As to dress, I don't really think much needs to change. We've already established that dress isn't usually religiously, but culturally motivated. I'm sure what you mention in Bosnia was more a thing to do with the religio-cultural influence of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Atridij]

As to dress, I don't really think much needs to change. We've already established that dress isn't usually religiously, but culturally motivated. I'm sure what you mention in Bosnia was more a thing to do with the religio-cultural influence of the Ottoman Empire.

In Orthodox Islam (Sunni and Shiite groups) you have a strict dress code (look up few Haddiths) which in deed is influenced by religion, the every culture gave it's own spin on it, but today all Islamic societies had Hijjabs and Turbans worn. From Andalusia, Volga Bulgaria and Bosnia in Europe to India, Indonesia and Malaysia. The Indians came into contact with Islam trough Persians and later Mongols, while Malaysia and Indonesia practically had no greater cultural exchange with the rest of Islamic world besides missionary work done by traders from Iran. Yet they have worn practically the same clothes of their Muslim co-followers in Europe but they were separated by thousands of miles and nearly a millennium of since the initial conversion of Iberians in the 7th century.
But to be honest various Islamic schools did appear during the national rebirth of many nations which removed most of the Islamic clothing for various reasons, Hamziis in Bosnia (early 16th century) did it because they rejected Haddiths, insisted on cults of war and the imperial state ruled by "the best of Ummah" (basically they wanted to introduce the Bosnia's Ottoman system to rest of the Ottoman Empire, but that is a story for another time) and started to pray on Bosnian, while Albanians did it for just for political reasons to distance themselves from the Ottomans.

Does that tell us that Hijjabs and Turban things all popped out completely independent in different cultures separated by thousand(s) of years and miles who in no correlation embraced Islam just shortly before, or we just go with Occam's razor?

 

[Clophiroth]

Because veiled Christian Arabic Andalusian ladies just kill the idea of a religious struggle tearing up the Old Continent.

Here, in Andalusia, women used veils until early 20th century, being catholic, so...

 

[Atridij]

Here, in Andalusia, women used veils until early 20th century, being catholic, so...

You do realize there is a difference between those veils?

And Islamic ones which I know for a fact that they weren't worn in Iberia thanks to the Inquisition: