Controlled Gold Mining and Control over Monetary Policy too expensive

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FishieFan

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I can die now knowing that I've read the most hilarious statement possible about EU4.

-15% goods produced is bad enough on the other one but +APC is the worst modifier in the game.
But its + production efficiency from control over monetary policy, and - 15% on gold is at cost of mines never depleting hence saving diplo in long run
 
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Less2

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But its + production efficiency from control over monetary policy, and - 15% on gold is at cost of mines never depleting hence saving diplo in long run
5% production efficiency isn't worth paying attention to at all. It's such an irrelevant marginal modifier that it does nothing.

-15% goods on gold means you need to dev the gold mine 2 dev higher in the first place, costing mana. You dev gold mines for more money in the here and now, when you are small and gold mines will double your income. When the gold mine depletes in expected 50-100 years from now you just don't re-dev it because you've outgrown it and don't need the money as much as the mana. And its only -75% mine depletion chance, which means the mine is still going to deplete at some point. Remember that you had to dev it higher in the first place to make up for your -15% goods, so it has a base depletion chance around +50% higher.
 
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KRBLACK

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Just wanted to mention if your inflation is at 1% without the privilege
than why not just keep it at 1.5%.
Like using you own math if:
1% gives 500 * .01 = 5 ducats a year
1.5% gives 500 * .015 = 7.5 ducats a year
So your taking a 5% power cost malus which for most of us is a pretty big malus, and saving an extra 2.5 ducats a year per manufactory.
I mean to be fair I don't usually take loans to make manufactories, but I thought most people went Bankrupt on purpose to not pay the interest at all. If you don't wanna go bankrupt I get it, but it seems like it's a lot of investment just to get 1% loans imo.

Side note stacking cost reduction doesn't really change any of the math, your still spending 5% more than you would either way. It's additive so if you have like 60% CCR, with the privilege it only counts for 55%. Stacking modifiers doesn't change the amount of mana that the privilege is going to cost you. Let's not even talk about when you wanna spawn institutions outside of Europe, cause that already cost a couple thousand monarch points before you slap +5%.
Nope.
All power cost is additive in coring cost formula, but multiplicative in diplomatic annexation.

20% coring cost + 5% APC > effective 25% increase in cost
20% diplo annex + 5% APC > 20*1,05 = 21% > 5% increased cost

The reason you want the minimum interest because it increases amount of loans before bankruptcy
 
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Namepending4

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Nope.
All power cost is additive in coring cost formula, but multiplicative in diplomatic annexation.

20% coring cost + 5% APC > effective 25% increase in cost
20% diplo annex + 5% APC > 20*1,05 = 21% > 5% increased cost

The reason you want the minimum interest because it increases amount of loans before bankruptcy
That's actually really cool, thanks for letting me know that it is multiplicative and not additive for diplo annex cost. But that doesn't change the argument for all the other power costs that you are going to use, since Coring, Tech, Ideas, and Dev are all still additive, and paying an extra 5% just to make a loan .5 less and for 13 years of inflation reduction worth 2 inflation, to me still feels like a raw deal. I could see turning it on, taking the loans and building the manufactories, the turning it back off. I don't feel like doing the math on at what loan size building manufactories is worth the loans and if the .5 is to break even. I understand that the .5 lets you take more loans, I'm just unsure if without the .5 you wouldn't be able to take enough, or if it's even really worth it in the first place, when you could just delay the manufactories, build them over the course of the game and still be a crazy economic power house by like the 1650's.

I never mentioned it but I agree with OP, that I feel like the +5% seems pretty steep for what you get, and I feel like it could be a less niche pick if they changed it to a different malus. Maybe -10% income instead, like you make less tax, trade, and production. So the burgers will help you pay off loans or deal with run away inflation but they are going to take a piece of the pie while they do it. No idea if that would actually be balanced, it just feels like a bit more flavor to me at least.
 
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Wertilq

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I never mentioned it but I agree with OP, that I feel like the +5% seems pretty steep for what you get, and I feel like it could be a less niche pick if they changed it to a different malus. Maybe -10% income instead, like you make less tax, trade, and production. So the burgers will help you pay off loans or deal with run away inflation but they are going to take a piece of the pie while they do it. No idea if that would actually be balanced, it just feels like a bit more flavor to me at least.
yes, I think this would be reasonable. I think the point should be that you invest income to handle costs if anything. Right now it's not even clear what it is for as it's silly expensive.
 
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KRBLACK

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That's actually really cool, thanks for letting me know that it is multiplicative and not additive for diplo annex cost. But that doesn't change the argument for all the other power costs that you are going to use, since Coring, Tech, Ideas, and Dev are all still additive, and paying an extra 5% just to make a loan .5 less and for 13 years of inflation reduction worth 2 inflation, to me still feels like a raw deal. I could see turning it on, taking the loans and building the manufactories, the turning it back off. I don't feel like doing the math on at what loan size building manufactories is worth the loans and if the .5 is to break even. I understand that the .5 lets you take more loans, I'm just unsure if without the .5 you wouldn't be able to take enough, or if it's even really worth it in the first place, when you could just delay the manufactories, build them over the course of the game and still be a crazy economic power house by like the 1650's.

I never mentioned it but I agree with OP, that I feel like the +5% seems pretty steep for what you get, and I feel like it could be a less niche pick if they changed it to a different malus. Maybe -10% income instead, like you make less tax, trade, and production. So the burgers will help you pay off loans or deal with run away inflation but they are going to take a piece of the pie while they do it. No idea if that would actually be balanced, it just feels like a bit more flavor to me at least.
You only take it if you absolutely want to stack interest cost reduction. And then only during actual bankruptcy-construction cycle.
The difference between 1,5% interest or 1,0% is rather massive. Not because of the interest expense, but rather the amount of loans you can maintain.

Bankruptcy is forced when your interest expense exceeds monthly income. Going from 1,5 to 1,0 reduces your interest expense by 33% and allows you to have 50% more loans outstanding.

Going Influence-Economic-Administrative gives you high diplomatic annexation reduction, vassal income and interest reduction.
Vassal feeding allows you to conquer more land without being limited as much by monarch points, it grants more resources from conquered territories immediately and generates less AE. If you can stack enough vassal income, and enable scutage your vassal can't maintain an army as it pays all its income to you AND it is always at peace and thus enjoys prosperity for its +25% goods produced.

Excess MP and prestige can be used to buy down the liberty desire of a large vassal quite extensively. IIRC you can get -100% liberty desire by developing 20 times, granting land and placating rulers (though the latter costs 200 prestige total)

Upon reaching tech 11 you unlock manufactories, which can now be built with borrowed money in all provinces of your vassals. They take quite long to build though, so you will need many loans to finance them AND then pay your deficit for five years AFTER they are completed. Interest reduction will come in handy.

I tried this strat with free city shenanigans and also in Tuscany.
You can stack interest through following sources:
-1% (econ + admin ideas)
-0,5% national ideas
-0,5% tuscan missions
-0,5% control over monetary policy
-0,25% or -0,5% for Catholic or Protestant respectively
-1% revanchism

Especially the latter is interesting. You can take a lot of land, trigger coalition, declare against coalition and immediately give away 100% warscore of land. This triggers long truce and grants 100% revanchism (which grants good benefits)

Technically, you only need the monetary policy privilege once your revanchism ticks down too much. And even then, the APC is not that bad a price in this strat.
You spend a lot of monarch points on diplomatic annexation and development, both of which aren't affected all that much.

Also fun fact: if you play as a free city and annex a large vassal, you will temporarily have a lot of dev. You can then hire a massive and cheap Free City Company and give away the annexed land to another vassal to keep your free city status.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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I use control over monetary policy for its interest reduction. The rest is just fluff.
If stacked, you can get interest rates of 1%

This allows you to have such an obscene amount of loans before bankrupting that you can just spam manufactories everywhere way way before you otherwise would be able to.
500 * 0,01 = 5 ducats in interest per year (per manufactory)
5 / 12 = 0,417 ducats per month

You can make more than 0,417 ducats per month per manufactory. This allows insane snowballing.
Also, if you pair it with diplomatic annexation, the +5% all power cost is not really impactful.
Vassal feeding and then stacking 100% diplomatic annexation will still allow you to annex for next to nothing.
Almost back to Florrynomics, but not quite! I think he was below 1 when he was living off loan spamming into bigger loans. APC is a steep price to pay though, it's not really great to rely on only subject feeding for long stretches, so you're going to take a monarch point hit there.
 
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zincpl

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I'd use controlled monetary policy a lot more if it was easier to remove e.g.:
* an automatic turn off after 5 years (like that religious 20 year one) - probably 10 years is too long - 7 years would be ideal as a tough choice imo, but it iisn;t a nice number.
* or a much higher burgher's loyalty boost (like 20 or 25) - this would make it easier to remove, and make it useful for getting rid of other privileges
using it would then be a more interesting choice imo
* edit - or e.g. if you could only turn it on with inflation above 1 and it would auto turn off if inflation hits zero (you could still turn it off manually)

alternatively if it gave some serious corruption removal too it might be good to help fight off a seriously bad economic situation.
 
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FishieFan

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I'd use controlled monetary policy a lot more if it was easier to remove e.g.:
* an automatic turn off after 5 years (like that religious 20 year one)
Which religious one does this?
- probably 10 years is too long - 7 years would be ideal as a tough choice imo, but it iisn;t a nice number.
* or a much higher burgher's loyalty boost (like 20 or 25) - this would make it easier to remove, and make it useful for getting rid of other privileges
Do you really need so many buffs to consider it worth it?
using it would then be a more interesting choice imo
* edit - or e.g. if you could only turn it on with inflation above 1 and it would auto turn off if inflation hits zero (you could still turn it off manually)
But its anti inflation isnt the only thing it does and you could still have other interest increasing effects like gold mine whilst resting on 0 inflation
alternatively if it gave some serious corruption removal too it might be good to help fight off a seriously bad economic situation.
So it helps your income, helps your loans, and helps your corruption loans? How is that balanced
 

KRBLACK

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Almost back to Florrynomics, but not quite! I think he was below 1 when he was living off loan spamming into bigger loans. APC is a steep price to pay though, it's not really great to rely on only subject feeding for long stretches, so you're going to take a monarch point hit there.
Well see my above post.
APC penalty really depends on what you spend your MP on.

Diplomatic annexation and development are not impacted all that much.
 

zincpl

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Which religious one does this?
Just checked, it's Enforced Unity of Faith - expires automatically if there are no provinces to convert or 20 years
Do you really need so many buffs to consider it worth it?
I think you missed the 'or', I wouldn't do all of those - but for it to be worth doing, it has to have a net benefit. I actually gave it a try in my current Isles game, but it's just not worth the monarch point cost and quite annoying to get rid of early on (which is when you're usually in debt). So I'd say it should have a better net benefit or be easier to get rid of. Another alternative would be to tone down the all power cost to say 2.5% then you've got a more interesting money vs monarch points question.
But its anti inflation isnt the only thing it does and you could still have other interest increasing effects like gold mine whilst resting on 0 inflation

So it helps your income, helps your loans, and helps your corruption loans? How is that balanced
Yeah I'm just trying to come up with ways to make it more of a 'I will use this situationally/sometimes' rather than 'i never use this'. It just feels like a trap atm. Though also I'd say, when you're in a bad financial situation, the alternative is bankruptcy which is not that bad, so incentivising players to try and fight their way out of such problems (at the expense of monarch points) would probably be a good thing. If it's too strong, you could say have it for a fixed period of 20 years if it included some corruption help. I don't normally play close to bankruptcy though so I could be way off.
 
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Hermerico

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Control over monetary policy is definitely worth it to small nations with a poor economy.

You are making a huge fuss over the MP cost increase. People seem to forget MP is not the goal on itself, it's the currency to achieve the goal.
I always have enough MP to be ahead of tech and have so much of it that i keep dumping it on province development.

I've never had a game ruined by lack of MP, but i have had several ruinned by economic death spirals.
 
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cuendillar

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Increased power cost doesn't really matter much if you go bankrupt, since you literally can't spend any afterwards due to being at -100 in each anyway. Even the ability to delay bankrupcty until after a war concludes favourably is valuable in itself, or avoiding it altogether.
 
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Fusilliban

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I think the Burgher priviledges "Controlled Gold Mining" and "Control over Monetary Policy" are just not worth it... like ever, their downsides should be changed to something to make them viable.
Yeah, I generally agree, these two both seem overpriced. I've never felt the need to select either, and can't imagine any situation I'd be in where either would be a thing I'd really want.

The "Yearly Inflation Reduction" modifier is consistently expensive, suggesting that EU4's designers think it's really good and has to be priced accordingly. I don't really get this, because it's not even close to being as good as +10% Land Morale, +10% Tax Income, +20% Improve Relations, or any other bonus that I like seeing in an advisor, national ideas, mission rewards, etc. If the inflation advisor was -0.5 inflation/year, rather than -0.1, I might go for it, but even then I'm not entirely sure.

Ironically, I'm not sure why inflation-reduction is so expensive.
 
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