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Crecer13

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Yesterday the game was for the USSR, I abandoned the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, so the border did not move. So, I defeated Germany and Italy, liberated absolutely all of Europe (including France). Germany has lost more than 6 million people with my losses of just under 400 thousand. My contribution to the victory is 43%. It seems to me that these numbers are broken.
 
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Praetori

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Yesterday the game was for the USSR, I abandoned the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, so the border did not move. So, I defeated Germany and Italy, liberated absolutely all of Europe (including France). Germany has lost more than 6 million people with my losses of just under 400 thousand. My contribution to the victory is 43%. It seems to me that these numbers are broken.
That's an opinion as valid as any. The weird thing about warscore/participation is that it favors casualties received rather than inflicted. While not intuitive from a gaming-perspective it does somewhat reflect the historical view. The USSR gained more political clout than the UK or US historically by pointing to their gruesome losses.

Had you taken a lot of casualties your warscore would have been higher.
 

Zeprion

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I previously made a topic about this:

Italy used the "we lost a lot of men" argument in World War I as well, but nobody cared because they lost them due to Luigi Cadorna's incompetence.

The Soviet Union is in a similar situation, they lost that many troops mostly due to their incompetence and disregard for human lives. But at the same time, the Soviet Union inflicted most casualties to Nazi Germany.

At the end of the day, who has a bigger says at the peace talks depends on military power. Stalin may have used the "sustained casualities argument" to impress people, but the reason he got the deal he got had nothing to do with sustained casualities, and little to do with inflicted casualities. The reason he got the deal he got was because he had a huge army. This is also the reason why UK, US and France were the big 3 of the Entente. US barely had 117,000 sustained casualities in World War I.

The "sustained casualities argument" is a good rhetoric, the key word here is rhetoric. Talking about your sustained casualities is more impressive as far as making other people sympathize with you goes. But that doesn't mean you contributed the most to the war effort. Or that talking about sustained casualities will convince the right people. It may convince civilians who knew little about the inner workings of the war, but you will have a hard time convincing generals and politicians who've seen how the war went. Therefore the real life examples with Italy and USA in World War I as well as USSR in World War II.
 
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Crecer13

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I previously made a topic about this:

Italy used the "we lost a lot of men" argument in World War I as well, but nobody cared because they lost them due to Luigi Cadorna's incompetence.

The Soviet Union is in a similar situation, they lost that many troops mostly due to their incompetence and disregard for human lives. But at the same time, the Soviet Union inflicted most casualties to Nazi Germany.

At the end of the day, who has a bigger says at the peace talks depends on military power. Stalin may have used the "sustained casualities argument" to impress people, but the reason he got the deal he got had nothing to do with sustained casualities, and little to do with inflicted casualities. The reason he got the deal he got was because he had a huge army. This is also the reason why UK, US and France were the big 3 of the Entente. US barely had 117,000 sustained casualities in World War I.

The "sustained casualities argument" is a good rhetoric, the key word here is rhetoric. Talking about your sustained casualities is more impressive as far as making other people sympathize with you goes. But that doesn't mean you contributed the most to the war effort. Or that talking about sustained casualities will convince the right people. It may convince civilians who knew little about the inner workings of the war, but you will have a hard time convincing generals and politicians who've seen how the war went. Therefore the real life examples with Italy and USA in World War I as well as USSR in World War II.

Well. The ratio of military losses of the USSR and Germany is 1.3: 1. But there are two big but:
- take into account that the USSR suffered huge losses at the start and reached a ratio of 1.3: 1
- German losses are underestimated, this is recognized by a huge number of historians, add here the collapse of Germany at the end of the war and the system of calculating losses. So the actual loss ratio can be well below 1.3: 1
If you look at civilian casualties, the game doesn't count.

In general, I find the system of contributing to winning by casualities extremely strange, if it really is.
 

Praetori

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At the end of the day, who has a bigger says at the peace talks depends on military power. Stalin may have used the "sustained casualities argument" to impress people, but the reason he got the deal he got had nothing to do with sustained casualities, and little to do with inflicted casualities. The reason he got the deal he got was because he had a huge army. This is also the reason why UK, US and France were the big 3 of the Entente. US barely had 117,000 sustained casualities in World War I.
The deals and peace-terms were beginning to flesh out well before the point where the Soviet military post-war strength were known though. The US position was largely governed by isolationism and a dislike for propping up any British Imperial claims. Both from the strategic and operational level as well as the political the US standpoint was quite clear. Military operational and strategic decisions should not be dictated by post-war politics. Roosevelts illness contributed to the US focus to just get the war over as soon as possible rather than to play any geopolitical game with Britain vs the Soviets. Truman and his Wilsonianism came too late to dent the common opinion of the Soviets "war score" (to use in-game terms).
 

Crecer13

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The deals and peace-terms were beginning to flesh out well before the point where the Soviet military post-war strength were known though. The US position was largely governed by isolationism and a dislike for propping up any British Imperial claims. Both from the strategic and operational level as well as the political the US standpoint was quite clear. Military operational and strategic decisions should not be dictated by post-war politics. Roosevelts illness contributed to the US focus to just get the war over as soon as possible rather than to play any geopolitical game with Britain vs the Soviets. Truman and his Wilsonianism came too late to dent the common opinion of the Soviets "war score" (to use in-game terms).
Yes, you're right here. Negotiations on a post-war peace were conducted long before the end of the war and calculations of losses. In reality, there was no counter that would count the losses in real time and everyone saw them. In addition, Roosevelt had good cooperation with Stalin on the war in Japan and postwar colonial policy. So the "Score of Victory" should be revised and perhaps political events should be added, relations between countries that ultimately affect the final score. So what will DLC be dedicated to this? Like La Resistance, was dedicated to espionage.
 

Praetori

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Yes, you're right here. Negotiations on a post-war peace were conducted long before the end of the war and calculations of losses. In reality, there was no counter that would count the losses in real time and everyone saw them. In addition, Roosevelt had good cooperation with Stalin on the war in Japan and postwar colonial policy. So the "Score of Victory" should be revised and perhaps political events should be added, relations between countries that ultimately affect the final score. So what will DLC be dedicated to this? Like La Resistance, was dedicated to espionage.
I would say that some form of as-the-war-progresses "point" system for war-targets like in some of the other PDS-titles could work to improve the peace-conference system (like "claims" in Stellaris). You could add or remove war-goals (including allied secessions in terms of territory, laws etc) and count lend-lease cashback, strategic resources, nukes etc as the war progresses. If a nation then surrenders the peace-conference would already be prepared with a lot of input in terms of territory claimed, losses or gains etc.

But in the end there are 2 stances available that are not necessarily compatible. What type of system would people want?

1) A mechanic geared towards historically plausible Grand Strategy (ie what makes "sense" from a gamey perspective isn't necessarily what you wish to achieve with said mechanic). A bit of what we have now.

2) A mechanic that makes sense from a gamey perspective (in terms of scoring points and judging who "won" in points in MP-games, scoreboards etc).