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HelmuthM

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In the Continuation War, Finland and Germany were co-belligerents against the USSR between 1941 and 1944.
Finland was not a member of the Axis nor was it in a war against the USA. Though Great Britain declared war against Finland in December 1941.
For Finland, there should be a possibility to achieve a separate defensive victory and avoid the occupation of the whole country, even if Germany loses on the Ostfront.

What about adding some events and mechanics to begin the Finnish Continuation War reflecting the Finnish special circumstances during the war?
 

Zeprion

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Having Finland and Germany fight USSR but not as part of the same faction would lead to gameplay issues, German troops not helping Finland, Finland making a separate peace with USSR in case they are defeated, etc. Finland wasn't part of the Axis, but aided in Germany's military assault on the USSR and was an ally of Germany, so for all pragmatic purposes, they were part of the Axis in everything but name, even though Finland was a moderate country and a democracy.

To make a separate peace, you can add the Moscow Armistice as an event if Finland is about to lose the Continuation War. If both Finland and USSR accept the event, there will be a white peace. On the same note, you can give the same possibiltiy to Romania and Bulgaria, but I guess the developers don't do that because it will lead to a mess in multiplayer.
 

wesleytj

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What about adding some events and mechanics to begin the Finnish Continuation War reflecting the Finnish special circumstances during the war?

At some point in the future, the Soviets are going to get a major rework. This is a stated goal of the Devs.

Whenever a DLC of that sort comes out, they also focus on nearby relevant minors. I have to believe that when the Soviets get reworked, the Finns do as well. That's when you'll see them get some special attention, and I look forward to that - I think they would be a fascinating play when done right.
 

valentin4

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Having Finland and Germany fight USSR but not as part of the same faction would lead to gameplay issues, German troops not helping Finland, Finland making a separate peace with USSR in case they are defeated, etc. Finland wasn't part of the Axis, but aided in Germany's military assault on the USSR and was an ally of Germany, so for all pragmatic purposes, they were part of the Axis in everything but name, even though Finland was a moderate country and a democracy.

From the beginning of the Continuation war , they didn't put all their eggs in the same basket : under US pressure, they refused to cut the railroad transporting lend lease from Murmansk.
 

Matoro_TBS

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If you wanted to re-create Continuation war as accurately as possible, you would need to teach AI Germany to basically use military access to Finland and defend Finnish borders while the Finnish have their own war.
Much easier way would be to just make Finland join Axis... which they technically never did, but c'mon, even the contemporary Finns saw through that. There were German troops in Finnish soil and the Finns attacked basically the same day as the Germans did. Then just give Finland special peace event that gives them a chance to peace out when the war starts going bad (if the Soviets accept.)
 

marcelo r. r.

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another item to long list of broken historical run issues, the lack of continuation war... and inst hard to fix,, just add a 'national spirit' to finland going gradually friend to axis after the winter war.

the AI issues related there doesnt exists more, i always force a "continuation" war and both GER and USRR engage on that front.

at moment a player way to fix it is tag switch and make USRR declare war on them by may-june 1941.
 

Kenttäharmaa

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[T]he Finns attacked basically the same day as the Germans did.

The Soviets began attacks on Finland on the 22nd, a few hours after the beginning of Barbarossa. Finland issued several diplomatic notes to the Soviets about these unprovoked hostilities, notes which were ignored, and then after a large-scale Soviet Air Force attack on Finnish population centers, proclaimed a state of war to exist on the 25th of June, three days after Soviet hostilities had begun. Finnish troops however did not attack until July-August. The Germans also did not launch attacks against the Soviets from Finnish soil before Finland had entered the war.
 

Jopa79

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From the beginning of the Continuation war , they didn't put all their eggs in the same basket : under US pressure, they refused to cut the railroad transporting lend lease from Murmansk.

Draha_na_murmansk.png
250px-JR45_crossing_Murmansk_railway.jpg

The red line on the map is the original Murmansk Railroad. In late 1941 the Finnish attacking phase reached the railroad at River Svir, at Lake Onega and north from Lake Onega temporarily halting all transportation via this railroad. However, the northern section of the Murmansk Railroad remained in Soviet hands and simultaneously the USSR had finished a new section farther eastward attaching it with the original northern section of the Murmansk Railroad, so the Lend Lease and supply was secured along this new section from the Port of Murmansk. Right picture is the Finnish Infantry Regiment 45 crossing the Murmansk Railroad nearing the end of the Finnish attacking phase of 1941.

I'm sorry to say this, but your claim ain't true. Finnish troops reached the Murmansk Railroad cutting several sections of it. It was probably the US pressure also, but at first hand it was Mannerheim's own will and a strict order to not to attack and harm Allied and US transportation, but this was more a concern of the Arkhangelsk-Moscow Railroad. Throughout the Continuation War both railroads - Murmansk-Moscow and Arkhangelsk-Moscow were continually targets and objectives of the Finnish long-range patrols (they spent several weeks, sometimes even months deep behind the front lines in observation and destruction missions) and they attacked the trains on the railroad sabotaging the track and yes, the patrols also saw the American tanks and airplanes in open railroad wagons and once a certain patrol also destroyed a train carrying the American Lend Lease. This patrol was heavily corrected and chasten by Mannerheim.

49205_r500.jpg

This is a Finnish long-range patrol deep behind the enemy lines. Strength varied from 5-200 men. Their missions were observation of the traffic and the supply, attacking Soviet truck convoys, destroying infrastructure, roads, railroads, bridges, attacking supply depots, destroying trains and taking prisoners. The 5th men counted from the front might be a Soviet prisoner - it seems he's not carrying a weapon and it looks like he's not wearing a headpiece either. SA-kuva.
 

Kenttäharmaa

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I'm sorry to say this, but your claim ain't true. Finnish troops reached the Murmansk Railroad cutting several sections of it. It was probably the US pressure also, but at first hand it was Mannerheim's own will and a strict order to not to attack and harm Allied and US transportation, but this was more a concern of the Arkhangelsk-Moscow Railroad. Throughout the Continuation War both railroads - Murmansk-Moscow and Arkhangelsk-Moscow were continually targets and objectives of the Finnish long-range patrols (they spent several weeks, sometimes even months deep behind the front lines in observation and destruction missions) and they attacked the trains on the railroad sabotaging the track and yes, the patrols also saw the American tanks and airplanes in open railroad wagons and once a certain patrol also destroyed a train carrying the American Lend Lease. This patrol was heavily corrected and chasten by Mannerheim.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here, or rather, why. Yes, the Finns took the section of the Murmansk Railway that ran through the south - they didn't take the one that ran through the east. The Finnish army was fully capable of permanently cutting the railway with an assault to Sorokka. Yes, Mannerheim gave the order not to do that, an order probably decided by US pressure. Ergo, Finland did not cut the Murmansk Railway likely due to US pressure.

Since I know you're a Finn, I'll just edit this Finnish video here in. This is what Mannerheim's right-hand man, General Airo had to say on the decision to not cut the railway (video is timestamped and should begin at 36:56):

 
Last edited:

Jopa79

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I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here, or rather, why. Yes, the Finns took the section of the Murmansk Railway that ran through the south - they didn't take the one that ran through the east. The Finnish army was fully capable of permanently cutting the railway with an assault to Sorokka. Yes, Mannerheim gave the order not to do that, an order influenced by US pressure. Ergo, Finland did not cut the Murmansk Railway due to US pressure.

It's a completely different thing to make a decision by own initiative than due foreign pressure. Long before the US desire and will Mannerheim had denied and banned all hostilities considering the Lend Lease. Equally, Mannerheim by own initiative again refused to carry on the Finnish attack towards Leningrad despite of the heavy German pressure due evaluating it would later turn out to be harmful if the tide of war was going to change less favorable for the Germans and the Finns.
 

Kenttäharmaa

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Long before the US desire and will Mannerheim had denied and banned all hostilities considering the Lend Lease.

Because he knew how USA would react.

due evaluating it would later turn out to be harmful if the tide of war was going to change less favorable for the Germans and the Finns.

This is one of the popular explanations given to Mannerheim's reluctance to cave to German pressure and attack Leningrad. I'm sure there were other factors as well, perhaps even far more important ones. For instance, in the video I linked above, General Airo when asked why didn't Finland have a plan to attack Leningrad, responded somewhere along the lines of "the Finnish army didn't have anyone crazy (crazy as in "stupid") enough to formulate such a plan", likely implying such an operation would have been very costly in lives for little to no gain.
 

Jopa79

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Since I know you're a Finn, I'll just edit this Finnish video here in. This is what Mannerheim's right-hand man, General Airo had to say on the decision to not cut the railway (video is timestamped and should begin at 36:56):

For instance Airo says clearly on the video that the original Murmansk Railroad was cut by the Finns further adding that him and other Finnish high-ranking officers (Lagus and Raappana) designed and presented a plan to the Finnish President in order to cut the railroad permanently. On the contrary, Airo's words are hard to follow when he's trying to explain who presented the plan for Ryti, he mentions Mannerheim, but also adding an unnamed young officer. Finally Airo says that together Mannerheim and Ryti ended up with a conclusion to not to cut permanently the Murmansk Railroad.

To me the video shows, that clearly the Finnish Military HQ had a plan to cut the Murmansk Railroad, the US, neither the British pressure didn't prevent the planning.
 

Kenttäharmaa

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For instance Airo says clearly on the video that the original Murmansk Railroad was cut by the Finns further adding that him and other Finnish high-ranking officers (Lagus and Raappana) designed and presented a plan to the Finnish President in order to cut the railroad permanently. On the contrary, Airo's words are hard to follow when he's trying to explain who presented the plan for Ryti, he mentions Mannerheim, but also adding an unnamed young officer. Finally Airo says that together Mannerheim and Ryti ended up with a conclusion to not to cut permanently the Murmansk Railroad.

To me the video shows, that clearly the Finnish Military HQ had a plan to cut the Murmansk Railroad, the US, neither the British pressure didn't prevent the planning.

Strange, I understood him fine. He said he formulated the plan, Mannerheim showed it to Ryti, with a more junior officer reading the text of the plan out loud to the President, after which Mannerheim and Ryti ended up agreeing to not carry the plan out, because of fears of USA declaring war, if Finland were to cut the Murmansk Railway. How you arrived to a conclusion from the video that is opposite to what Airo is saying, is beyond me, but anyway this is getting rather off-topic now, so best drop the matter or continue it elsewhere.
 

Jopa79

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Aksel_Airo_1940.jpg

Akseli Fredrik Airo is the man interviewed in the video. Airo was a lieutenant general and the Finnish main strategic planner during the Winter War and the Continuation War.

He says one very interesting and significant aspect considering cutting the Murmansk Railroad and the deterrent about the US declaring war on Finland, first in Finnish:

-Minusta se oli virhe, ettei menty (Sorokkaan). Silloin, kun sodassa on, niin pitää käyttää kaikki hommat. Ei minusta se ollut mikään, jos sitä pelättiin joskus näissä hommissa, että Amerikka julistaa, Englantihan oli jo julistanut sodan - Että Amerikkakin julistaa sodan, mitä se olisi meille vaikuttanut, vaikka Amerikkakin julistaa sodan.

-I think, it was a mistake to not to attack Belomorsk (cutting permanently the Murmansk Railroad). When at war, all means must be used. If someone was afraid of the US declaration of war onto us, it didn't have an effect onto me. England had already declared war onto us and if the United States was going to do the same, what would it had changed?

This short fragment is a clear sign, that let's say at least there were disagreements at the Finnish HQ whether or not to cut permanently the Murmansk Railroad - at least for Airo the Allied, neither the US opinion in this matter was not crucial.
 

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I'd like Finland to be able to win the Continuation War, via some decisions or events or something - if Finland holds the territory it lost in the Winter War, and the Soviets lose Moscow, then being able to offer a peace, restoring those territories to Finland, should be possible.

Same with the Winter War too - Finland should be able to get a peace without having to completely conquer the Soviet Union. If the Finns take Leningrad, they should be able to offer a peace with the Soviet Union where the Soviets drop their claims on the territories.

There's a few other things that should happen, like Sweden giving military access to the Germans after Barbarossa starts, so the Germans can move units by land across into Finland.

The issue as I see things is that multi-factional wars when a participant gets a white peace, tend to end up pretty weird and messy for the other participants.
 

Ossiv

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For those who are not Finnish this might sound strange, but the highest leadership of Finland, while at war with the Soviet Union, definitely did not want war with the USA, whatever some lower ranking officer (even a lieutenant-general) thought. The US and Finnish diplomats met and talked friendly during the war, while their countries fought on different "factions", but not against eachother. The Finnish President and C-inC were not willing to commit fully as an ally of Germany, they wanted to take back territory lost during the Winter War when there would become a possibility for peace. Finland advanded further than it's prewar borders mostly only on those areas where there was a considerable Karelian (relative to Finnish) population.

Finland denied all German requests for a combined attack on Leningrad. It had been hometown of Mannerheim for decades when he served as an officer (rising there to rank of lieutenant-general) of the Imperial Russian Army before the Bolshevik Revolution.
 

Kenttäharmaa

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I'd like Finland to be able to win the Continuation War, via some decisions or events or something - if Finland holds the territory it lost in the Winter War, and the Soviets lose Moscow, then being able to offer a peace, restoring those territories to Finland, should be possible.

From a realism-perspective, there was no reason to accept a separate peace while Germany was winning the war. Depending on what the front would look like, accepting it could well have still been suicide. IRL in 1941 Stalin did supposedly "offer" Finland a return to the pre-1940 borders, in the form of mentioning it in a letter to the US, the contents of which in turn were sent to Sweden, from where they were sent to Finland. How sincere that letter was is dubious. In any case, accepting any kind of separate peace in 1941 would have been suicide for Finland and simply have led to the country becoming a war zone between the Germans and the Russians, and probably led to a subsequent Soviet occupation. Not to also mention that Finland at that point was entirely dependent on grain imports from Germany, without which the country would certainly have faced famine in 1942, something she very nearly averted thanks to said grain.

Sadly the game doesn't really model any of this, so in an in-game scenario where the Germans have pushed the Russians back all the way to Siberia, there could be a separate peace event that gives Finland her pre-1940 borders, all of East Karelia, as well as the Kola Peninsula, since by the time the war would be in Siberia, Finland would for all intents and purposes be at peace, and should not suffer the in-game stability maluses that come from being at war. A Greater Finland would be a fait accompli, even if Finland would de jure refrain from annexing territories outside her pre-1940 borders until a formal peace deal with the Russians would be signed (in-game that'd be a German-led peace conference, or a peace event similar to something like the Bitter Peace). Actually already IRL the country did demobilize a large part of the army from the end of 1941 to around mid-1944, going to a partial peace-footing, since not much was happening at the front during the so-called "Trench War Phase" of the Continuation War.

Nothing to say about your other points btw, totally agree with them.

For those who are not Finnish this might sound strange, but the highest leadership of Finland, while at war with the Soviet Union, definitely did not want war with the USA, whatever some lower ranking officer (even a lieutenant-general) thought.

Which is what Airo is saying. He simply questions the logic of it, since a US declaration of war realistically-speaking would not have made Finland's situation any worse. He is likely correct in this. After all, it wasn't some half-hearted political pressure from FDR on Stalin that saved Finland from Sovietization in the summer of 1944, rather it was Finland's armed forces together with units and much-needed anti-tank materiel from Germany, that stopped the Soviet Karelian Offensive at the VKT & U-lines, as well as at Ilomantsi, in June-August 1944. Arguably impeding American lend-lease to the Soviets might have ended up saving more Finnish lives than not cutting the Murmansk Railway ended up costing.

Finland advanded further than it's prewar borders mostly only on those areas where there was a considerable Karelian (relative to Finnish) population.

The ethnic composition of those territories, beneficial for propaganda purposes as it may have been, was irrelevant to the actual decision to cross the pre-1940 borders; that was done on a purely military-basis. Not that you are necessarily saying otherwise, I'm merely mentioning this for clarification.
 
Last edited:

Louella

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in an in-game scenario where the Germans have pushed the Russians back all the way to Siberia, there could be a separate peace event that gives Finland her pre-1940 borders, all of East Karelia, as well as the Kola Peninsula, since by the time the war would be in Siberia, Finland would for all intents and purposes be at peace

Yes. Something like that would be good.