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unmerged(4271)

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CONTENT REVIEW & VOTING

This is one of two threads in the forum for the discussion and consideration of new content for the game. This thread has been created to allow review and discussion of suggestions by players of new facts, figures, and details of the island's law, history, demographics, etc. that are not contained within the existing Game History or the many existing background threads.

This is NOT the thread to initiate those suggestions. A companion thread has been set up to receive those proposals, as discussed below.

This purpose of this thread is to allow players to review suggestions for introducing game content that is not addressed elsewhere. Players will post suggestions here that have already been determined to be, upon initial review, compatible with existing Eutopia game history and content. This thread is not to be used for suggesting changes that would re-write existing history or to change laws without going through the legislature.

The CONTENT SUGGESTIONS thread is where ideas should initially be proposed. This thread is where players actively discuss, debate, and ultimately help decide whether these suggestions are adopted.

Here's How the Two Threads Will Work:

- Players submit a proposal for background content by posting in this thread, CONTENT SUGGESTIONS including "TOPIC: (insert name of topic here)" in the title.

- Players provide exactly what they are proposing and why - why they think their proposal is needed information, how they developed it, etc.

- There is public initial evaluation by the GMs, a quick check to see if what's being suggested is compatible with the game. This is not a comprehensive review. This is simply a way to screen out anything obviously inconsistent with the rules or game history. Justification for such a ruling would be provided.

- After this initial screening and GM confirmation that the topic is Open for Review, Players should submit the idea to the CONTENT REVIEW THREAD. Players get a fixed time period, say a week to two weeks to comment. They can support it, oppose it, suggest changes, etc. The player proposing it can comment as well. GMs might share their comments, too.

- At the end of the review period, the GMs will look at the discussion and, if it hasn't been amended in such a way to be incompatible with the rules or existing history, the GM Administration will post the final proposal in and call for a period of player voting on the proposal in the CONTENT REVIEW THREAD.

- Once there has been sufficient voting, if the majority of players endorse the change, it shall be recorded and added as official game content, and added to appropriate Eutopiary threads. If players vote it down, then it is rejected and can be reconsidered in a revised form at a later date, unless rejection is overwhelming.


GM Rulings on Content will continue to be Final. But that's how it's always been. :D

This new procedure will delegate a lot of the decision-making on content review to the players, and hopefully many interested and informed opinions will make for better content.


Questions about content review or suggestions should NOT be posted in this thread, but rather in the HELPDESK or OOC Thread. Thanks. :)
 

unmerged(4271)

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Things to help make this run smoothly!


TIPS, PROTOCOLS, GENERAL GOOD IDEAS

Here are some general steps we can take to make sure that we can review and discuss these issues in an organized way. :) We'll add on to this list as needed.

1) When posting an approved Topic for the first time, or when commenting on a topic, please include "TOPIC: (name of topic here)" in the Title of your post. This will really help keep things straight. ;)

2) When a vote is called, please do not continue to discuss a topic. Otherwise our discussion may never end! :eek:

3) When voting on a Topic, please include "VOTE: (name of topic here) in the Title of your post.

4) Observe all forum rules (of course) in terms of civility and appropriate topics for discussion.

5) PLEASE use the collected archives of past threads as a research tool! :) There is a LOT that has already been established in the various Ministry Threads that, if reviewed, will prevent a lot of unnecessary "reinvention" in this thread.

Thanks!

 

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TOPIC: Private Arms Production

(I am bringing by-passing the CONTENT SUGGESTION Thread as I have given myself Mod-approval of the topic).

I am introducing this suggestion based on several player requests for permission to build various weapons, from handguns to airplanes.

Regardless of the specifics that have been submitted for each of these weapons, there is one overriding thing I think all players have ignored.

But rather than trying to apply it by GM Fiat or through some nasty event, I will instead bring it up here for discussion.

It has been my interpretation of the rules, and I believe Melancthon's as well, that private production of arms in Eutopia is illegal.

The whole reason for ENDTech was for there to be a government monopoly on arms production. It is my interpretation that this monopoly means that there can be no production of military grade equipment by any other supplier in EUtopia.

Could non-military grade arms or supplies be produced? Possibly. It might be feasible that hand guns, hunting rifles, etc. could be legal, or it make make more sense that ALL arms in Eutopia are produced only through ENDTech.

I think precedent suggests that non-military grade arms can be SOLD in Eutopia. That is, the sale of such items is legal and has been taking place long before ENDZone tried to move into that market. However the issue of PRODUCTION must be resolved.

What is the behind-the-scenes reasoning for ENDTech having a monopoly? Despite whatever pros and cons there are for a nationalized arms industry, as Blade! related it to me, this decision was based on past experience from Eutopia I, where players would RP industrialists who would build their own private arms factories, from which they could build their own private armies.

In Eutopia II, Jacob Lundgren, got around this legally by simply claiming his industrialist character owned several off-shore weapons and munitions factories, most notably in Guyana. This was perfectly okay and acceptable. But then talk among the old CC members about building a private security force with assault helicopters and bazookas had to be nipped in the bud.

So, given all of this, and given two requests by players to approve specific weapons for production in Eutopia, I want to recommend that:

1) We establish once and for all that private production of military-grade arms is illegal in Eutopia.

2) The production of non-military grade arms (small arms, ammo) is also illegal (just for the sake of simplicity).

3) ENDTech may contract out the production of such items as jeeps, ships, and possibly aircraft, to private firms within Eutopia, but any weapons systems can only be added to them by ENDTech or foreign vendors.



I feel VERY strongly about point #1 and feel the game history is on my side with this. I am about 75% about point #2, because I think it will make things consistent and eliminates gray areas. I am uncertain about point #3) and how well it would work, but it seems like a plausible compromise.

Let's discuss this and see what you think.
 

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TOPIC: Fishing and Shipping

(These Topics were submitted by Craig Ashely for GM review and have been approved for consideration here - heagarty)

Craig Ashley proposes that we establish basic information about the size and profitability of the fishing and shipping industry.

Excerpts from Craig Ashley said:
Moving along, transfer from fishing to shipping. Hawk brought up a point that many of our fishing companies have likely gone belly up. Those that remain may be making a profit. However, I pointed out that government subsidies are more likely to be what is keeping them afloat. I’ll need some sort of idea on what the true state of the fishing industry is, and is it sustainable on its own? I would suspect not at this point.


If this is the case, I need some figures on how much the capital equipment of existing companies is worth. I really can’t make a guess without knowing how large our fishing industry is.

(details of specific economic plan deleted)

I don’t know if shipping is more or less labor intensive than fishing. I would think with OurTime back up and running (any event updates on them coming up?), a new, domestic shipping and transportation industry would be in a situation to do well, with both companies benefiting.

This section is the carrot; the stick would be the cutting of all federal subsidies to fishing. The budget lists 12 billion for fisheries and resources. I assume this is where the subsidies fit in.

If fishing has a full 1/3 (mining and lumber being the other major subsidized industries) that would be 4 billion that cold be cut. Given the lumps fishing has taken over the years, I’d guess it is a bit lower and probably in the 3 – 2 billion ducat range. Again consider this an IC request for information, figures, and impact.

Craig, care to elaborate or explain any of this in greater detail?

Approved by GMs for discussion and review.
 
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TOPIC: Welfare

(This Topic was submitted by Craig Ashely for GM review and has been approved for consideration here - heagarty)

Craig Ashley proposes that we establish basic information about welfare needs in Eutopia.

Excerpts from Proposals by Craig Ashley said:
First off, I think we should establish what welfare currently looks like in Eutopia. Here’s a quick proposal.


Currently (X number) households are on federal welfare. Benefits are figured based on household size and capped at an annual payment of 10,000 ducats. Currently, short-term relief lasts for 16 months. Once exiting the program, one can reenter in three months. Extensions can also be applied for and frequently are. 68% of all recipients either receive extensions or reenter the program shortly after exiting.



Employment immediately begins to cut into benefits with 2/3 of every ducat earned being reduced from benefits. (Example: Recipient receives 10,000 annually in welfare benefits but takes on a part time job earning 6,000 annually. Benefits are cut by 4,000. So now, the recipient receives 6,000 in welfare and 6,000 in earnings, a net gain of only 2,000 ducats.) Upon earning the equivalent of 10,000 annually, benefits are immediately terminated, however exceptions can be made for excessive one-time earnings that are not likely to be repeated (i.e. overtime, one time bonuses, ect.)



There is some minimal job placement assistance, but recipients have a 53% unemployment rate just 6 months after being placed in employment. Chronic lateness, absences, and petty theft are the most often cited reasons for termination and many individuals simply stop showing up for work. Individuals in between welfare have a higher rate of minor criminal activity as well (26% higher than national rates).



Long-term benefits are also available for individuals with permanent disabilities. These are capped at 14,000 annually, but frequently are below that figure.



OK, here’s my reasoning on this rather grim report on welfare. It fosters long term dependence on the government. It does keep individuals afloat, but drains incentive for individual achievement. The underclass are more frequently raised in unstable homes, abusive homes, or become latchkey kids. Parents are either working far too much to support the household to properly raise children, are children themselves, in jail, or dead. Children often grow up lacking certain social skills that are needed in the work place. This leads to their difficulty in holding a job. Crime rates are higher because it is well know that poverty breeds crime. Also, the underclass lack a support network of family and friends so minor events (car repairs, medical costs, child care, ect.) become a major crisis.

Craig, care to elaborate or explain any of this in greater detail?

Approved by GMs for discussion and review.
 
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TOPIC: Specific Handgun specs

(This was presented to the GMs for review and approved for consideration here. Regardless of whether such a weapon can be produced privately in EUtopia, I suspect it could be designed legally.)


I know nothing about hand guns and simply cannot give approve or disapprove this based upon my level (lack of) knowledge. Therefore, it is submitted here for review.

- heagarty
GM Events

Proposal for a specific hand gun design to be approved by EstonianZulu

EstonianZulu said:
The BM Drachem 01

Recoil operated, locked breech pistol. It is a Browning-type link less locking system with an interlocking barrel. Dual action (Semi and full auto) pistol. Select fire based off Glock 18 Law enforcement weapon. 12 round 9.mm, with expanded clip rises to 25.

Original model made of steel, making the weapon very heavy but nearly indestructible. Slightly difficult to take apart for quick repairs, but also very hard to damage or wear. The weight also adds to the accuracy, and the easy control. Recoil is low, but the rate of fire is not exceptionally high.

Pluses- Heavy and reliable. Hard to damage, and excellent accuracy
Negatives- Heavy not as fast as other modern weapons. Has problems in extreme climates.

Estonian Zulu, anything to say about this plan?

APPROVED BY GMS FOR DISCUSSION AND REVIEW
 

unmerged(4271)

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TOPIC: Fishing and Shipping

Just my initial thoughts....

In response to Craig's proposal concerning fishing and shipping, I think that if you look at the nations participating in the NAFA talks where a new treaty on fishing was debated and concluded, you can get a feel for Eutopia's peers in fishing.

Assume that every nation listed there is better than Eutopia, with the possible exception of Morocco, given all of EUtopia's hardships, but that Eutopia would rank just below the lowest ranked nation in terms of fishing production.

Assume also that this figure would be lower still due to the loss of Tilapia and St. Esprit and their fishing fleets.

In terms of shipping, I am unsure where to look for a comparable model.

Thoughts by other folks?
 

Amric

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Private Arms

Well I figure that in the case of Dragon Aircraft that since Andrews Manufacturing is ONLY making the planes, not the weapons it would be okay. Of course, now that my character is running ENDTech I have ordered the manufacture of weapons for the Mirage fighter to be placed upon the aircraft that Dragon is making, therefore not going against the current thinking in the manufacture of weapons. Now the idea that private industry shouldn't make weapons, well I always kind of thought that was odd, but then I am an American so perhaps I have a bias in that respect.

I have no problem with private manufacturers actually making weapons for the government. But I can see, what with Eutopia's history with coups and so forth how that could be a bad idea. Hence, perhaps building weapons platforms without the actual weapons could be feasible. A ship without guns is pretty useless as a weapon until it has weapons put on it. A fighter or bomber without weapons is just a plane. An APC without weapons is just a transport vehicle.

Guns without bullets are clubs. Perhaps in the case of BMI, they could MAKE the weapons, but would not be allowed to make the ammunition. That could only be done at ENDTech. Non military grade weapons wouldn't necessarily be an issue.

But that is my two cents on the matter.
 

Estonianzulu

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Well, I guess I'll go through all three.

1. The three proposals-

I am part of the reason this is a question. In the case of what I had planned, ENDTEch was merely conracting out for other companies to produce weapons. Instituting the system you propose cuts that off. I see that you fear that it will up the number of crazy people trying to start coups.

Thing is, I don't see that happening. So far the two 'coups' I can remember were done from within the military structure. One, MDIA, the other military officers. Neither would be effected if a private company was making arms. The other weapons that people have had (see all the terrorist groups) were made offshores. So, domestics would once again be a moot.

I see no reason why ENDTech would not contract out construction and design. Since the government has the monopoly, selling these arms would be illegal. However, if the government rented companies to make and design the weapons. This is what I was seeing with the BMI-ENDTech styles.

#2. Im not quiet sure what the proposal is.

#3. Well, I proposed it. Pluses and minuses are listed.
 

Voshkod

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TOPIC: Private Arms Production

I agree that creation of military-grade weapons should be a state-monopoly. Let's face it: in most countries, the state is the only buyer for such items, so they may as well be part of the famous "military-industrial complex."

I'm not convinced that small-arms should be denied to private entities. It lacks realism. However, if it makes life easier for the mods, it's hardly a real loss.

If we accept that all arms are a state monopoly, whether military or civilian grade, then ENDTech should be able to license production. This eases the burden on the ENDTech director and gives others who want to run businesses something to do.

TOPIC: Fishing and shipping industry

I don't know much about industrial fishing in real life, but regarding shipping, I'd be very surprised if Eutopia had a large number of flagged vessels. Flags of convience are what people turn to today; Liberia has the largest merchant fleet in the world - on paper. Unless Eutopia wants to become a convience flag (a good way to make money), I would think we would have very minor shipping and ship building industries.

TOPIC: Welfare

Honestly, this issue makes my eyes glaze over. Let's just grab the welfare system from a European state - either Sweden or Germany - and run with it.

TOPIC: Handgun design

It's a plausible design.
 

Voshkod

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TOPIC: Criminal Code

As approved by heagarty for discussion:

Eutopia needs a criminal code of some sort. This was something I was planning to work on when I ran Napier as my character. Instead of creating one out of whole cloth, I suggest we adopt an existing one. My recommendation is Australia's, for a couple of reasons:

1) It's recent - updated last in 1995

2) It's from an island - like Eutopia

3) It's from a liberal democracy - like Eutopia

4) It's code, as opposed to case, based - less "legal" research required.

The 1995 Australian criminal code can be found at http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pasteact/1/686/top.htm

Some parts of it might not be relevant, or may have been superceded. For example, it has a section on espionage, which is already covered by an existing Eutopian law. The sections on things like "harming Australians" would have to be read "harming Eutopians," as well. But it would provide us with a preexisting legal framework which we could then modify in the Legislature.
 

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TOPIC: Private Arms Production

I am entirely OK with the proposal as-is; the manufacture of ship hulls or aircraft by private entities with weapons produced and installed by ENDTech makes perfect sense (and is additionally important to at least a couple of ongoing projects, i.e. the Coast Guard cutter designs last term and Amric's current Mirage work.) I could go either way on whether private industries can produce small arms. I would be inclined to say that they can so as to not bankrupt EZ's character, but I would also suggest stringent limitations on what they can produce. Nothing military-grade, certainly, and nothing automatic either (or at least not for private consumption -- I think RoFA requires as much.)

TOPIC: Welfare

I'm with Voshkod on this one, though the proposal does look OK. Two things, though -- first, why would I want a 10,000 ducat job if I only get 10,000 ducats from it, whereas with a 6,000 ducat job I get 12,000? ;) Second, if the Eutopian ducat has the actual buying power of the U.S. dollar, then a 10,000-ducat-per-annum cap will put everyone on welfare well below the poverty line (see here for U.S. figures). This is especially true since that's the cap, implying most people are actually below that maximum. Unfortunately this is contingent on a lot of other things we don't, AFAIK, know -- such as the buying power of the ducat (which is in turn dependent on the cost of goods) or the average salary of an average worker.

TOPIC: Handgun design

Generally OK, with one caveat. Dual (or more commonly, double) action doesn't have anything to do with semi vs. full auto; rather it indicates that the first trigger pull cocks the hammer and then cycles the weapon (discharging the spent casing and feeding a new round into the chamber) . This is in contrast to a single action weapon, which requires the first shot be manually cocked by the shooter. (The action of firing recocks the hammer for subsequent shots with either action.) An example of the first would be the Beretta 92FS; an example of the second would be the M1911. Both are semiautomatic pistols.

That said, full auto pistols tend not to work well, mostly because there's no good way to control recoil. If this particular weapon is based on Glocks, the bullets are going to be all over the place, because there's no front grip; also, without the extended clip, you're going to be out of bullets in a fraction of a second (and even then things don't improve much.) Also also, depending on how the debate about private arms production goes, the difference between a semi-auto and a full auto may be the difference between being able to produce and not.

And, just for reference, I neither own any guns, nor have I ever fired one. I'm just a great big geek. ;)

TOPIC: Criminal Code

Australia generally looks OK. I was also going to suggest the Model Penal Code but I don't seem to actually be able to find the text online anywhere. The Australia code looks to have a few weird bits, but it's probably better than nothing (and we can always explain them away as vestiges of the monarchy era. ;))
 

Josephus I

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TOPIC: WELFARE

Currently (X number) households are on federal welfare. Benefits are figured based on household size and capped at an annual payment of 10,000 ducats. Currently, short-term relief lasts for 16 months. Once exiting the program, one can reenter in three months. Extensions can also be applied for and frequently are. 68% of all recipients either receive extensions or reenter the program shortly after exiting.


Overall I think Craig's welfare proposal is a workable one. My only disagreement is the 16 month period. Is he implying that for three months after that, they can't collect? I don't think it's a fair system. Welfare should last the duration. I know that there is an extensiion, but I say we ditch that clause.
 

unmerged(33865)

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TOPIC: Pay-as-go-pension system

Mel's post in the helpdesk thread provided enough information so as to make the content suggestion that was approved on the topic of a pay-as-go pension system irrelevant, so I won't be posting a more complete description here for review and voting.
 

Amric

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Topic: Welfare

I have to disagree with Josephus here to a point. 16 months is PLENTY of time to find a job. Even if it is just a minimum wage job. Work TWO minimum wage jobs if you must. Long term welfare should only be for those who are incapable of working. There is absolutely no incentive to find work if you will get money from the government indefinitely. That is why there IS a cap. To keep those who only want to leech from the system from abusing it. Not to deny those who are incapable of working from collecting.
 

The_Hawk

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Remember, Amric, that the goal here is not to be discussing how things should be, but rather how they are. There's every reason to give Eutopia a currently-broken welfare system and then watch as the GA tries to fix it.

And laugh. Oh, god, yes, laugh. :D
 

Josephus I

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Let me say this....this is all OOC so it has nothing to do with Josephus' socialist tendancies.

All western countries give some form of welfare indefinatley to people. Otherwise they'd all be on the streets. Even America does it. This is welfare or social assitance, not unemployment. Our current RUBB gives benefits for a set period of time, enough to find a job...when that ends they fall on social assistance.

This notion that everyone capable of working should work, idealic as it is, is nonsense. At 10 per cent unemployment, there isn't work for everyone, and people fall through the cracks.

Again, when discussing this, remove your characters' inherant beliefs and the inevitable Josephus vs. The Rest of You mentality. Social assistance is a universal program that never ends for some people.


Josephus
 

Estonianzulu

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That is true, some people never get off social assitatnce (whether it be from bad luck, or their own lack of innitiative)
 

HJ Tulp

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It's also done for a economic reason, people with no money can't spend anything.