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Magnificent Genius

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thirdly, Paradox opts to create more paid content in lieu of remedying the issues in a timely manner (that artists and composers can't code is a faulty argument since lend-lease, and additional focus trees need coders and that takes coders away from solving core game issues).

I just want to point out, that in game development, there are more content designers on the staff than just artists and composers(the guy who is designing those focus trees, for example, that isn't the artist or programmer creating that), what are all they supposed to be doing while the programmers are hard at work? Get laid off? No company is going to pay a whole mess of employees to sit around doing nothing for a year, and it's not like they can help with the programming.

Even if they could, there is a limit to how much additional hands can help. Eventually you reach a threshold where people are just getting in the way.
 

Axe99

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That is the point where we disagree. You call it "improvements", I call it "changes" at best. And no, I do not consider those points "issues", I consider them game-breaking and exactly the opposite of what is written in steam shop advertisement of HOI4 (which I just read - again).

A lil bit more detail about game-breaking in my opinion:
  • Redeploying/abandoning fronts makes the major player in this conflict easy prey: Germany.
  • "Poor naval combat" of slaughtering or being slaughtered makes another major player in this conflict a much too easy prey: UK. And also USA in the long run. Also it renders a German submarine strategy moot.
  • "Poor air combat" of beaming planes makes eg strat bombers overpowered. Same goes for 200 plane wings vs 1 plane wings (including the resulting Ace spam). Same goes for lack of concentrated bombing (by CAS) etc etc etc.
Each of them breaks the game, by either making a historic course of action impossible, making a major nation break way too early or by making nations ineffective in one regard or too effective in another (esspecially Japan or India manpower after fascist coup or).

I think we're at the agree to disagree stage here :). Going forward, here's hoping we're both happier with the game after 1.4 is out :).
 

lihp

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I did not say "a new game", I said "the new game", as in the most recently released major PDS game, not a new as in recently released game. I suggest that you re-read that sentence, a small matter but my use of "the" rather than "a" is critical to the meaning of the sentence. As such, with the exception of Stellaris, it is four years younger than any of the other PDS games and has had less time to be perfected. For my part, I would like the bug fixing and AI improving to be faster.

Then we are on the same page. Thanks for the clarification.
 

lihp

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I think we're at the agree to disagree stage here :). Going forward, here's hoping we're both happier with the game after 1.4 is out :).
Aye - we are definitly at the opinion and expectation stage here, which is of course different for anyone to a lesser or greater degree.
 

therealpete

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I wish people giving 'constructive criticism' would understand its not like with a few strokes of a keyboard that programmers are able to make changes in a game, especially in game that is as complex as HoI4. Everytime they make a new patch, in doing so it creates a new set of bugs that they have to iron out and in a company like Paradox that doesn't have a cubicle army of programmers, it all takes a long time.
 

lihp

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I wish people giving 'constructive criticism' would understand its not like with a few strokes of a keyboard that programmers are able to make changes in a game, especially in game that is as complex as HoI4. Everytime they make a new patch, in doing so it creates a new set of bugs that they have to iron out and in a company like Paradox that doesn't have a cubicle army of programmers, it all takes a long time.

What some people fail to understand is, that there are more than a few people in this forum who are not from Paradox with a strong IT background. This includes - but is not limited - to developers, software development project leaders and managers as well as IT infrastructure architects for huge environments. People having an experience in managing projects of 300+ man years.

I for myself know for 100% that the above listed profiles exist in this forum.

Thank you.
 

therealpete

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What some people fail to understand is, that there are more than a few people in this forum who are not from Paradox with a strong IT background. This includes - but is not limited - to developers, software development project leaders and managers as well as IT infrastructure architects for huge environments. People having an experience in managing projects of 300+ man years.

I for myself know for 100% that the above listed profiles exist in this forum.

Thank you.

And then further what some fail to understand is, even with "IT" experience, that has nothing to do with game development. You can be an absolute wiz with AWS or whatever strikes your fancy, and still have zero idea or understanding of what it takes to make changes to a game like this. It's not like you can just change some zeros to ones on a few lines of code and think everything is fixed.

Thank you.
 

lihp

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And then further what some fail to understand is, even with "IT" experience, that has nothing to do with game development. You can be an absolute wiz with AWS or whatever strikes your fancy, and still have zero idea or understanding of what it takes to make changes to a game like this. It's not like you can just change some zeros to ones on a few lines of code and think everything is fixed.

Thank you.

That applies always to projects, which are uncoordinated. Yet I strongly believe software development at Paradox is actually well coordinated and communicated internally. Or do you want to claim it is different?

My pleasure.
 

Balesir

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That applies always to projects, which are uncoordinated. Yet I strongly believe software development at Paradox is actually well coordinated and communicated internally. Or do you want to claim it is different?
I think the projects are well coordinated; FWIW I have experience with software projects, including large ones, and with games and wargames. I think the problem with HoI is actually that the precise game intended and desired has never been made (successfully) before. The learning curve in terms of how it may be structured is still ascending quite sharply. This is something I'm quite acquainted with in my other qualified field - economics.
 

lihp

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I think the projects are well coordinated; FWIW I have experience with software projects, including large ones, and with games and wargames. I think the problem with HoI is actually that the precise game intended and desired has never been made (successfully) before. The learning curve in terms of how it may be structured is still ascending quite sharply. This is something I'm quite acquainted with in my other qualified field - economics.

We both agree here and are actually on the same page so far - in every regard.
 

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It's not like you can just change some zeros to ones on a few lines of code and think everything is fixed.

The thread seems to be spinning into a bit of a game design discussion, which has inspired me (for better or worse) to share a few thoughts/impressions along these lines.

Firstly I agree with the quote above. With a project this deep and intertwined, rarely if ever can you correct a given issue by altering a few snippets of code. Trying to do so usually creates more problems than it solves, as more often than not the repercussions are both far reaching and potentially unexpected.

Second, my impression from reading dev comments in recent diaries is that many of the persistent (so-called 'day one' issues), are rooted in design limitations which for example, now that the building is already 10 stories high, (i.e. 10 months post-release), makes it far more complicated to go back and change the plumbing from the ground floor up to accommodate a higher water flow.

From my perspective, I empathize with those who feel frustrated at the slow pace of AI improvement and tackling of 'day one' issues. I do so because I've felt the pain myself (and continue to feel it). Frankly, I wish there was a magic wand solution where everything could be made right in a single swoop. But despite my best wishes, such a wand doesn't seem to exist.

So rather than quick sweeping 'solutions' we find ourselves in a slow moving boat of incremental change where progress is measured in small strokes. Certainly not optimal and certainly not to everyone's taste, but I have seen a series of modest improvements from patch-to-patch. (Which probably explains why I'm still here).

Does this mean there are no longer issues that some would consider game breaking? Of course not. It's just I prefer the slow moving boat that seems to be headed in the right direction to the boat that's still tied to the dock. At least the devs are trying to get there, and while the journey isn't nearly fast enough for many, I for one am glad they're still paddling.
 

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Firstly I agree with the quote above. With a project this deep and intertwined, rarely if ever can you correct a given issue by altering a few snippets of code. Trying to do so usually creates more problems than it solves, as more often than not the repercussions are both far reaching and potentially unexpected.

This^.

The following little meme has endured because it is so true.

HTisMpC.jpg
 

14lokk1

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I just want to point out, that in game development, there are more content designers on the staff than just artists and composers(the guy who is designing those focus trees, for example, that isn't the artist or programmer creating that), what are all they supposed to be doing while the programmers are hard at work? Get laid off? No company is going to pay a whole mess of employees to sit around doing nothing for a year, and it's not like they can help with the programming.

Even if they could, there is a limit to how much additional hands can help. Eventually you reach a threshold where people are just getting in the way.

That's why I think that everything that's not strictly 'game design' should be contracted out. You really don't need to keep a bunch of artists and composers around when you can pay less for contracted work, with less money going to employment benefits etc. Nowadays with the internet, you can even hire an artist from across the globe, you can take your pick at the best artist for the job, and pay less. How's that not a good thing. And while yes, there are diminishing returns, right now on AI issues, there seems to be SteelVolt alone working on them, so I'd say right now we are very far from that threshold.

The thread seems to be spinning into a bit of a game design discussion, which has inspired me (for better or worse) to share a few thoughts/impressions along these lines.

Firstly I agree with the quote above. With a project this deep and intertwined, rarely if ever can you correct a given issue by altering a few snippets of code. Trying to do so usually creates more problems than it solves, as more often than not the repercussions are both far reaching and potentially unexpected.

Second, my impression from reading dev comments in recent diaries is that many of the persistent (so-called 'day one' issues), are rooted in design limitations which for example, now that the building is already 10 stories high, (i.e. 10 months post-release), makes it far more complicated to go back and change the plumbing from the ground floor up to accommodate a higher water flow.

From my perspective, I empathize with those who feel frustrated at the slow pace of AI improvement and tackling of 'day one' issues. I do so because I've felt the pain myself (and continue to feel it). Frankly, I wish there was a magic wand solution where everything could be made right in a single swoop. But despite my best wishes, such a wand doesn't seem to exist.

So rather than quick sweeping 'solutions' we find ourselves in a slow moving boat of incremental change where progress is measured in small strokes. Certainly not optimal and certainly not to everyone's taste, but I have seen a series of modest improvements from patch-to-patch. (Which probably explains why I'm still here).

Does this mean there are no longer issues that some would consider game breaking? Of course not. It's just I prefer the slow moving boat that seems to be headed in the right direction to the boat that's still tied to the dock. At least the devs are trying to get there, and while the journey isn't nearly fast enough for many, I for one am glad they're still paddling.

While the plumbing is hard to fix when your building is built, you have to wonder why the plumbing is broken in the first place. Possibly after many people tried to warn against those issues the architect still went ahead with the faulty plumbing? Maybe the architect liked faulty plumbing? Or maybe the architect doesn't feel the plumbing is broken? What's worse is that for many months the architect denied that the plumbing is broken, instead asking for evidence of leakage in the most buearucratic manner.

That is exactly what happened here. At release, the devs clearly felt that the AI was alright, and whenever there's a forum post saying otherwise the devs would ask for a screenshot and save game about the issue, after many of these posts, the devs still asked for the same. Firstly, QC should have tested this and SEEN those problems, which weren't at all fringe cases before release, and secondly, after release, instead of admitting that the AI is broken, the devs hid behind this bearucratic wall. I think that most upsetting thing me and other players have with this game and the 'paradox model', is that day-one purchasers and preorderers are effectively beta-testers. And while it's true that talking about this won't help the situation much, I feel that if the devs/paradox executives came out and said something along the lines of 'We're sorry the product was so poor at launch, we pledge to solve all the significant problems within x months, and that as an apology for selling an unfinished game, we will give away x for free.' This will generate a lot of goodwill within the community and placate most of the playerbase. But instead of that, they're announcing two paid DLC's before the core game is even fixed, that's pretty much as big a slap in the face as you can get.
 

lihp

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The thread seems to be spinning into a bit of a game design discussion, which has inspired me (for better or worse) to share a few thoughts/impressions along these lines.

Firstly I agree with the quote above. With a project this deep and intertwined, rarely if ever can you correct a given issue by altering a few snippets of code. Trying to do so usually creates more problems than it solves, as more often than not the repercussions are both far reaching and potentially unexpected.

Second, my impression from reading dev comments in recent diaries is that many of the persistent (so-called 'day one' issues), are rooted in design limitations which for example, now that the building is already 10 stories high, (i.e. 10 months post-release), makes it far more complicated to go back and change the plumbing from the ground floor up to accommodate a higher water flow.

From my perspective, I empathize with those who feel frustrated at the slow pace of AI improvement and tackling of 'day one' issues. I do so because I've felt the pain myself (and continue to feel it). Frankly, I wish there was a magic wand solution where everything could be made right in a single swoop. But despite my best wishes, such a wand doesn't seem to exist.

So rather than quick sweeping 'solutions' we find ourselves in a slow moving boat of incremental change where progress is measured in small strokes. Certainly not optimal and certainly not to everyone's taste, but I have seen a series of modest improvements from patch-to-patch. (Which probably explains why I'm still here).

Does this mean there are no longer issues that some would consider game breaking? Of course not. It's just I prefer the slow moving boat that seems to be headed in the right direction to the boat that's still tied to the dock. At least the devs are trying to get there, and while the journey isn't nearly fast enough for many, I for one am glad they're still paddling.

Sorry, I thought we were past that point for a long time...

Most readers of the forum should be by now aware that a fix isnt easy. I for myself even mentioned in another thread, to not expect too much from the next patch. It is obvious and basic logic that there wont be a one-hit wonder after 10 months where the issues are still existant in one form or another.

The point to me is different from my opinion:
  • After 10 months we still have game-breaking issues. Game-breaking since HOI4 is sold as an authentic WW2-simulation, which it isnt. It isnt since removal of 100% of the troops from one front to another is not only breaking that nation completely (mostly Germany), but also breaks the whole course of history at once. Similar for air (strat bombers) and naval combat (breaking UK and also somehow USA).
  • 10 months were ample time to drastically reduce the issues to no avail. 10 months where players for the most part were nice, quiet and accepting - after all its Paradox. (Except the usual trolling which happens from time to time).
  • As of now I summarize as follows: goal not achieved. By 100% not achieved. Even after 10 months HOI4 doesnt deliver what is advertised due to game-breaking issues.
I do not know how Paradox plans to handle it from here on. Options imho are:
  • Ignore: actually the worst idea, since Paradox will loose loyal players that way.
  • Refund: 100% refund for all players who want to. Thats a capitulation as in "we cant do it", so I would advise strongly against it.
  • Communication: come up with a plan on how it is fixed asap to an acceptable level, while communicating those topics at #1 priority and current progress.
  • ... (there might be more options)
I consider the communication variant a cool one, fine with me. Also it already started from my perception - nice step by Paradox. Patch 1.4, 1.5 and 1.6 are the next points to check the result(s).
 

lihp

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That's why I think that everything that's not strictly 'game design' should be contracted out. You really don't need to
<snip>

Near- and offshoring doesnt work that easily (unfortunately). While I can agree with the message, I do not fully agree that its easy. Maybe its not even a viable option here.

While the plumbing is hard to fix when your building is built, you have to wonder why the plumbing is broken in the first place. <snip>

Interesting questions. Fully with you.
 

Axe99

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That's why I think that everything that's not strictly 'game design' should be contracted out. You really don't need to keep a bunch of artists and composers around when you can pay less for contracted work, with less money going to employment benefits etc. Nowadays with the internet, you can even hire an artist from across the globe, you can take your pick at the best artist for the job, and pay less. How's that not a good thing. And while yes, there are diminishing returns, right now on AI issues, there seems to be SteelVolt alone working on them, so I'd say right now we are very far from that threshold.

Watch out for getting sucked into the myth that contracting out means everything the same for cheaper. One of the benefits for having a team co-located and working together means that content people, programmers, designers and QA can all work together on issues together, and build trust, understanding and continuity as a team. It's rarely the case (even with art - which has to fit with a UI, for example) that there's a clean line where one job finishes and another ends. The only people that I know outside of these forums (ie, this isn't a dig at you :)) that are really gung-ho about widespread contracting out are clueless executives who use it to get short-term returns for long-term hits to their business. If we want HoI4 to be a long-term quality production, I'd be strongly, strongly against that kind of contracting out. The largest problem is that it's much harder to maintain continuity of staff (after all, a contractor is only available when not on another contract - and if they're being dropped in and out of contract all the time, they're hardly going to be sitting around waiting for the next piece of Paradox work) - and instead of the gains of cheaper labour, you waste a whole lot of money bringing new people up to speed all the time, effectively speed-limiting the level of quality and competency of staff working on the project.

It's one of those 'false economies'. It looks good on the surface, and for the first few months might even get a similar job done cheaper, but it erodes quality and capability over time, and can often lead to costing more to achieve the same longer-term. I can't stress enough, particularly for the kind of complex, interconnected work that is game development, why it's a good idea to have a core 'team' working together, rather than a couple of game designers supported by a bunch of contract managers and randoms (qualified sure, but there's a whole lot more to any job worth doing than basic skills) picked off the internet based on whose available when the work needs to be done. Sorry to go on a bit, this is one of my bugbears, as I've seen it so often over the years pushed by managers who then go and destroy the capabilities of an organisation, often because they're so inexperienced themselves they don't understand the damage they're doing or have done. Obviously, I'd be keen not to see it happen to one of my favourite developers :).

That's not to say contracting at the margins on a bit of art can't help (it does - and, in fact, I'm pretty confident Paradox does contract out some of their art), but Paradox's music, for example, is a product of having a really good composer on staff for years that has a lot of experience scoring music that works in a GSG context. It would be possible, of course, to get any old composer to score any old stuff, but it's highly unlikely to work as well (I don't know a single other strategy developer who has music that as consistently hits the high mark that Paradox's does).
 
Last edited:

Gwydion5

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I wish people giving 'constructive criticism' would understand its not like with a few strokes of a keyboard that programmers are able to make changes in a game, especially in game that is as complex as HoI4.

I wish people who defend HOI4 would stop framing "constructive criticism" as being unreasonable. Like anyone is reasonably arguing or expecting the AI to be fixed with "a few key strokes". Or that because HOI4 is X ( X = Complex, more advanced, different approach, etc...) that they are somehow immune from being criticized. This is just such a vicious circle where there are obvious criticisms that are not constructive, that do not deserve a response that are getting responded to. Then there are constructive criticisms that are being framed as unreasonable, because some people feel their opinion must be right at all cost. The simple objective truth is that after 10 months of owning a product, people know how they feel about the product and it is very unlikely you are going to change peoples opinion on how they feel. So this need to defend HOI4/PDS's honor is counter productive and dragging the forums down in to hell.

Engage reasoning, if the comment is not reasonable, then ignore it would be the best advice I could give. Also if you are happy with the product, then be happy and don't feel it is your duty to tell people who are not happy that they are wrong. Put yourself in their shoes, if you were unhappy with something you owned for 10 months, how are you going to feel about another customer telling you that you are wrong? So then what good can possibly come to the forums/community by trying the same thing?

And then further what some fail to understand is, even with "IT" experience, that has nothing to do with game development.

Not sure if you work in IT, but I can say that IT people cover a lot of area and to say software development is not equal to game development is not my experience at all. But if you disagree, I would like to hear your thoughts on how managing a software development project is more unlike than like game development.

I think the projects are well coordinated; FWIW I have experience with software projects, including large ones, and with games and wargames. I think the problem with HoI is actually that the precise game intended and desired has never been made (successfully) before. The learning curve in terms of how it may be structured is still ascending quite sharply. This is something I'm quite acquainted with in my other qualified field - economics.

My position is "I don't know because I'm not there". So I can't say what the corporate environment is like to say whether it is or is not well coordinated, or managed, or whatever. So I'm wondering what makes you think that? What parallels are you drawing from your experience and correlating to what you think/know of PDS?
 

Balesir

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My position is "I don't know because I'm not there". So I can't say what the corporate environment is like to say whether it is or is not well coordinated, or managed, or whatever. So I'm wondering what makes you think that? What parallels are you drawing from your experience and correlating to what you think/know of PDS?
I cannot know that the projects are well coordinated, hence why I say "I think". The reason that I think this is that, from contacts I have with the devs here on the forums and from the tweets etc. that they write, my impression is that they are well organised, have a good idea what their aims are and set about moving towards them in a rational and coordinated way.

On the "game development is different to software development": the software angle - converting game mechanics into coding - will be pretty similar to other IT development, pretty clearly. But designing a game - be it a board game, wargame, roleplaying game, card game or whatever - is very different from either coding or the sorts of functional specification job I am used to. It's not the development of the computerised game that is different - it's the actual underlying game design.