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Mkoll13

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I am glad I abstained from purchasing the game when I saw the state of the AI upon release. I was doubly glad that I hadn't when it came out that the AI didn't know how to upgrade it's light armor divisions to medium armor on release. I've been waiting for a major AI overhaul before I consider purchasing it. Hopefully this patch will deliver, but who can say until it's in people's hands?
 

Balesir

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Now that being said, and this is of course strictly my opinion, I have a really hard time understanding the mindframe of a person who's going to spend significant time on the forum of a game they vehemently dislike. If you spent your money and you didn't get a good product, why put so much effort towards something you didn't like? This is not saying let's all be fanboys every time the devs do something, obviously. But I've seen movies that I thought were terrible and regret spending money on. Been on dates that turned out not to be going anywhere. Splurged a bit too much of snack food while out on the town. But it's only in gaming/media where people spend months talking about a product they don't like, from a company they think are taking advantage of them, with goods that are too expensive and don't provide enough value etc etc. I can't imagine it's very healthy to be spend so much free time making yourself angry. If you think HOI4 has been an unmitigated disaster, then wipe your hands and make a mental note to be more cautious with your money next time.
But, you don't understand! The world should be devoting itself to making what I want, not wasting its time with all this stuff for other people!!111! ;):p:D
 

14lokk1

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That's not what "Paradox is ripping us off" means. It means that you are accusing them of deliberately charging a price that is out of proportion with the amount of effort it requires from them to develop the game. It is a personal attack, just as much as "they are lazy" is, and it requires evidence if it is not to be slander.

I suspect what you mean to say is "this DLC content is not that much use to me, and I don't feel that it is worth the asking price to me". That would be a very reasonable complaint, but (a) it's not in any way the same as being "ripped off" and (b) note that it relates as much to your desires and preferences as it does to what Paradox have done.

On tone, I don't see that it has much to do with being "Libertarian", but, sure, you are free to adopt any tone you choose. But, if you adopt a tone that is insulting and slanderous, don't be surprised if you get repaid in kind.

I don't actually think that's what 'Paradox is ripping us off' means. I think it means that they're charging a price which is disproportional to the value a product provides. Now, sure it may be a fallacy for those making that argument that value for them isn't value for some other person, but that point still stands, in that they're expressing an opinion albeit poorly.

As for the libertarian comment, that was mostly in response to the harm argument. As a libertarian, I usually place individual rights above a very broad definition of harm. While I condemn actions if that action infringes on another's individual rights, I do not think that being rude to someone constitutes any kind of substantial harm to the person on the receiving end. While not pleasant, if a person is acting within his rights to express himself, then what he says is up to him. I do draw the line at personal attacks/threats since they're against forum rules/the law, however other than that, I feel that they should be allowed to express their opinion using whatever tone they wish.
 

amalric de g.

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What are we basing expectations on though? For a WW2 GSG, HoI4's AI is well above average - so people expecting a good deal better than what we got were benchmarking the AI to a standard that hasn't been met yet in the genre.

What? The AI is well above average? Sadly I didn´t made a screenshot of my last game, the SOV AI had no Divisions on the german/polish border, even after i started a normal war justification, no Divs in sight. I conquered the SOV in two months.

I prepared in 1944 for a epic sealion, crushed the RN and a US CV Task Force in the channel with thousands of NAVs and the Kriegsmarine and landed in Dover with 10 tank Divisions and 10 Paratrooper Divs. Guess what happened? The british had 10 Divs in UK proper, the Allied US (450 DIvisions) was sightseeing in NA and India.
 

REDDQ

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You seem determined to show that the game is broken and does not work. I stand by my assessment that it works. It does not crash. 20 (almost 30 years ago...damn where does the time go) years ago you would have had no support and would have had to live with the game as it game out the box, and you know what you would have praised the game for not crashing. Hell I wish HOI II would have worked this well out of the box.

My car analogy is no better or worse than anyone else's. I simply changed what worked and didn't work to show that the game works just not as people would want. You don't have to agree with my analogy. I try not to get into too many arguments on here as it is generally subjective opinion vs subjective opinion.

I never said game is broken and/or does not work. It is actually one of my fav games. That is why criticism is very important.

What are we basing expectations on though? For a WW2 GSG, HoI4's AI is well above average - so people expecting a good deal better than what we got were benchmarking the AI to a standard that hasn't been met yet in the genre. If we go back to the car analogy, it's like someone buying a car expecting it will do something no other car has before (insanely good fuel economy say), and is then disappointed that it doesn't - it's not like the wheels falling off.

That's not to say people shouldn't ask for better, or let the devs know we want better (in my post in the DD this week, the main question I asked related to an element of AI performance, and I've been a strong proponent of 'as good as possible' AI, and of the AI being the main feature in the game, since well before it was launched). This is the odd thing for me, because the main reason we're getting a smaller expansion is because the devs have focussed more on base mechanics and the AI (ie, they did what most folk on the forums* had been asking them to do for months, and now they getting criticised for it**).


* At least as far as I've seen - I don't read every thread.
** Of course, people are well within their rights to do this. I just think it should be done as respectfully and rationally as possible.

I am not saying AI should pull Rommel on me, although if it could from time to time amass 20 odd divisions in one point of a frontline and try to push I think it would blown people away. It certainly is much better now.

Dunno about that above average AI, HoI3's seemed a lot more cutthroat than HoI4 one. I got into it fairly late (and clock only dozens of hours) but I cannot recall problems with unit shuffling, accidental troop transport across the body of water or troubles with taking empty provinces (now eliminated thankfully),
 

Aodhan_

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What? The AI is well above average? Sadly I didn´t made a screenshot of my last game, the SOV AI had no Divisions on the german/polish border, even after i started a normal war justification, no Divs in sight. I conquered the SOV in two months.

I prepared in 1944 for a epic sealion, crushed the RN and a US CV Task Force in the channel with thousands of NAVs and the Kriegsmarine and landed in Dover with 10 tank Divisions and 10 Paratrooper Divs. Guess what happened? The british had 10 Divs in UK proper, the Allied US (450 DIvisions) was sightseeing in NA and India.

Oh I haven't played in a while, just started my German campaign last night. The Soviets having no troops on their boarder isn't good and will be really disappointing if there is none (I love my Russian campaign), I'm at March 1939 about start war in 5/6 months game time. Though I have invaded England before as in 1944 and they have had a good quantity of troops, although I have invaded early 39 I have seen it with little to none. It will be interesting to see if the Soviets have troops on the boarder when my troops gets there.

I do agree though the AI does need a lot more work in many area's, and I do think Paradox will get it done eventually hopefully sooner rather than later.
 

Balesir

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I don't actually think that's what 'Paradox is ripping us off' means. I think it means that they're charging a price which is disproportional to the value a product provides. Now, sure it may be a fallacy for those making that argument that value for them isn't value for some other person, but that point still stands, in that they're expressing an opinion albeit poorly.
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense linguistically. "Ripping us off" is soemthing that Paradox do - it's a verb phrase. The "value a product provides" is something that relies on the recipient's tastes and intentions; it's not something that Paradox (or anyone else) can do to customers. For "a company ripping off its customers" to make any sense whatsoever as a phrase, there must be something that the company is doing that is independent of what their customers are doing or wanting. The only option that springs to mind is if they are charging massively more for the product than it is costing them to develop and maintain it. Expecting them to second guess what value the product might or might not have for each customer is completely unrealistic. I mean, I'm sure that they would love to have full details of what every customer really wants and how much they would pay for it, but I don't suppose they are so deluded as to think that they can get it...

As for the libertarian comment, that was mostly in response to the harm argument. As a libertarian, I usually place individual rights above a very broad definition of harm. While I condemn actions if that action infringes on another's individual rights, I do not think that being rude to someone constitutes any kind of substantial harm to the person on the receiving end. While not pleasant, if a person is acting within his rights to express himself, then what he says is up to him. I do draw the line at personal attacks/threats since they're against forum rules/the law, however other than that, I feel that they should be allowed to express their opinion using whatever tone they wish.
This is getting pretty off-topic; if you want to discuss it I'll switch to pm, but I find that, if you want a basis for libertarian ethics Kant's "treat others as an end in themselves" is a superior approach to thinking in terms of "rights". The problem with this on the internet, of course, is that it requires some thoughful reflection...
 

PsychoLold

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I think I wrote this on the forums somewhere else, but it seems pertinent so shrug.

One of the issues that seems to be happening is that the consumer base has two camps with different expectations for what HOI4 should be. On one end of the spectrum you have the folks who want a WW2 grand strategy simulator, and on the other end are the people who want to play a mid-twentieth century sandbox. Ultimately these are two significantly different ideals for the game. People's expectations are not being delivered, and HOI4 is trying to straddle these two ideals with only modest success. So, there's always going to be a camp that the devs will annoy when they announce new content.

I'm more of a forum lurker, but honestly mate the Paradoxplaza forums are without a doubt are one of the more pleasant gaming communities out there on the web. The vast majority of the discussions are well reasoned and civil. For the most part, people even try to construct coherent sentences! That's unheard of on a gaming forum :p That's probably due to the fact that Grand Strategy games tend to skew toward older demographics, but nevertheless even the angriest posts on the HOI forum are still leagues above the typical community.

Now that being said, and this is of course strictly my opinion, I have a really hard time understanding the mindframe of a person who's going to spend significant time on the forum of a game they vehemently dislike. If you spent your money and you didn't get a good product, why put so much effort towards something you didn't like? This is not saying let's all be fanboys every time the devs do something, obviously. But I've seen movies that I thought were terrible and regret spending money on. Been on dates that turned out not to be going anywhere. Splurged a bit too much of snack food while out on the town. But it's only in gaming/media where people spend months talking about a product they don't like, from a company they think are taking advantage of them, with goods that are too expensive and don't provide enough value etc etc. I can't imagine it's very healthy to be spend so much free time making yourself angry. If you think HOI4 has been an unmitigated disaster, then wipe your hands and make a mental note to be more cautious with your money next time.
First of all, I agree with most of your post. There's a few points I want to add though.

While the HoI4 forum indeed looks like a paradise compared to many other forums it is still the most 'angry' community in the paradoxplaza forums that I know of. I usually lurk in the EU4 and HoI4 forums and there are some noticeable differences between them. For one, I think the HoI4 devs are a little less active in the forums than the EU4 team (notable exception: @SteelVolt who does a tremendous job for someone who has received a lot of bad comments in the first months after release). Also, the overall atmosphere here feels more hostile than in other subforums on this website (like, 2 out of 100 on an internet hostility meter, as compared to 1 out of 100 in the other subforums). Though I have to say, both of these points have changed slightly in the recent two months or so.

Another thing I want to add is that some of the criticism stems from the way this game is evolving differently to what almost everybody (I think) hoped for. I personally don't hold a grudge against the dev team (since I am a programmer myself) but stuff just didn't turn out the way people hoped it would. HoI4 was released almost a year ago and we're seemingly still in the 'fixing major issues' phase. I think everybody hoped that we now would be talking about major upcoming new features but puppet mechanics and LL aren't as important to most players than the AI being able to hold a front line (understandably). When the field marshal edition was announced, we were told that we pay 90€ up front so the developers have more 'secure' resources to improve the game and we get 50€ worth of DLC and patches 'for free'. Now I am sure we are getting our money's worth when it comes to how much work the team has spent on improving the game, unfortunately it seems like a comparatively big portion of this work is spent on bugfixing. This is a good thing, for sure, but not probably not what everybody expected. When comparing this to the EU4 development for example, the difference becomes obvious when reading the dev diaries. EU4 diaries read more like 'We added 10 new features and by the way fixed these 20 bugs', while HoI4 DDs read more like 'We're drowning in bugs, please send help and by the way here's a feature'. Now again, I am not salty about this, for two reasons. Firstly, bugfixing should always come first. Secondly, the community explicitly requested more updates on fixing issues, so I'm happy with the developers listening to the community. Unfortunately it does not help with the impression that a very vocal group has, that is that this game still is in a bad shape (which I think it isn't, but it's the impression that some players still very much seem to have). As long as there still are pressing and obvious issues the negativity among the 'naggy' portion of the userbase will keep reinforcing itself based on the fact that the AI is still a bit derpy sometimes, to say the least. This reinforcement effect is what makes the mindframe of the people you are talking about in your last paragraph. As long as the amount of criticism is above some threshold they will find affirmation among each other. I can understand this group, although I think what they are doing with their constant whining is not helping anyone.

That being said, 1.3.* improved the game on multiple fronts and damped the criticism noticeably. I think 1.4 will further increase the happiness among the HoI4 faction and maybe people will actually write more posts about strategies and game mechanics than melodramatic posts about whether or not this game is bad.
 

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I don't actually think that's what 'Paradox is ripping us off' means. I think it means that they're charging a price which is disproportional to the value a product provides.

PDx is going to charge what they believe is a relevant price for their product based on break evens and gross margins. This should lead to profitability. They do not charge based on the value a product provides. They can not charge that way as that is a subjective statement.

"Ripping off" implies intentional and malicious harm.
 

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What he emphasize is that both products can be broken/damaged/badly designed and he has a right to voice dissatisfaction. It is popular because cars have extremely complex development cycle, yet another thing in common with software, and cannot be accused of being just a tree cut to pieces.
But where these analogies fail is that cars are physical machines and as such rely on the hard science of mechanical engineering. ME is much less nebulous than the art of software design. It is like comparing physics to psychiatry.

When there is a failure in automotive engineering, people die. Ford Pinto anyone? A car also costs $20-50k Instead of a game at $20-50.

The car analogy is almost pure hyperbole when used in relation to HOI. Now, I am not saying that hyperbole is an invalid tactic, but it is usually something easily dismissed. it's effectiveness is based on the impact of shock value.
 
Last edited:

Aries666

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The OP would be all well and good if it wasn't for the fact that the community has largely been very constructive and patient just to see problems with the game on launch persist almost 12 months on in addition to season pass purchasers looking increasingly getting very poor value for their money.

Stellaris was released about one month before HOI4 but will make it to 1.6 before HOI4 makes it to 1.4 and in the process will have had masses more content added in addition to major overhauls to some of the poorer game mechanics. This speaks volumes to the suitability for release of HOI4 last year.
 

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Sorry, but this doesn't make sense linguistically. "Ripping us off" is soemthing that Paradox do - it's a verb phrase. The "value a product provides" is something that relies on the recipient's tastes and intentions; it's not something that Paradox (or anyone else) can do to customers. For "a company ripping off its customers" to make any sense whatsoever as a phrase, there must be something that the company is doing that is independent of what their customers are doing or wanting. The only option that springs to mind is if they are charging massively more for the product than it is costing them to develop and maintain it. Expecting them to second guess what value the product might or might not have for each customer is completely unrealistic. I mean, I'm sure that they would love to have full details of what every customer really wants and how much they would pay for it, but I don't suppose they are so deluded as to think that they can get it...


This is getting pretty off-topic; if you want to discuss it I'll switch to pm, but I find that, if you want a basis for libertarian ethics Kant's "treat others as an end in themselves" is a superior approach to thinking in terms of "rights". The problem with this on the internet, of course, is that it requires some thoughful reflection...

I don't want to get into a political/ideological debate here, but I'll just say that words have different meanings to different people. Slang such as 'ripping off' in particular has no defined meaning which everyone agrees on. Furthermore, I'm not indicating that Paradox IS ripping anyone off, I'm saying that anyone who feels that way should be allowed to express such an opinion. The point in contention here is that a lot of people think that in order to post a forum post, you have to be polite, rational, and constructive. I believe otherwise, I believe a lot of people come to the forum to express their own opinions, and as such requiring them to be polite, rational and constructive when all they want is to express themselves is misguided. Sure, it's better if everyone is civilized, but if someone wants not to be (as long as they don't contravene forum rules), who are we to stop them? We have every right to ignore them, we can also post below them requesting them to be nice, but we cannot bar them from the forums for simply being mean. It is of my opinion that all opinions are valuable, even poorly written, rants ones.

PDx is going to charge what they believe is a relevant price for their product based on break evens and gross margins. This should lead to profitability. They do not charge based on the value a product provides. They can not charge that way as that is a subjective statement.

"Ripping off" implies intentional and malicious harm.

Yeah of course, I don't have any problems with how Paradox decides how they charge products specifically. This thread is a thread about forum behavior, and as such that is my point of contention. If someone comes along and says 'I feel Paradox is ripping us off'. I feel that is within his right to express his opinion. Sure, that is better qualified if he provides his justification, but as a raw opinion, I don't see any problem with that. Furthermore, since all opinions are assumed to be personal unless stated otherwise, that statement can be contracted to 'Paradox is ripping us off.' While poorly written, and possibly in bad taste, I don't think those sorts of opinions should be banned. If someone genuinely feels that Paradox's pricing strategy is causing intentional and malicious harm, then they have every right to express that opinion.
 

REDDQ

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But where these analogies fail is that cars are physical machines and as such rely on the hard science of mechanical engineering. ME is much less nebulous than the art of software design. It is like comparing physics to psychiatry.

When there is a failure in automotive engineering, people die. Ford Pinto anyone? A car also costs $20-50k Instead of a game at $20-50.

The car analogy is almost pure hyperbole when used in relation to HOI. Now, I am not saying that hyperbole is an invalid tactic, but it is usually something easily dismissed. it's effectiveness is based on the impact of shock value.

The problem here is that we are only talking about cars and games in context of consumer vs products and as such how they are made is not relevant, both are products and luxury ones at that. It seems more an argument to absurdity to me than just a hyperbole anyway.
 
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Balesir

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I'm saying that anyone who feels that way should be allowed to express such an opinion. The point in contention here is that a lot of people think that in order to post a forum post, you have to be polite, rational, and constructive. I believe otherwise, I believe a lot of people come to the forum to express their own opinions, and as such requiring them to be polite, rational and constructive when all they want is to express themselves is misguided. Sure, it's better if everyone is civilized, but if someone wants not to be (as long as they don't contravene forum rules), who are we to stop them? We have every right to ignore them, we can also post below them requesting them to be nice, but we cannot bar them from the forums for simply being mean. It is of my opinion that all opinions are valuable, even poorly written, rants ones.
I agree that anyone should be allowed to state their opinion, even if they are impolite, irrational and destructive. But I and others should also be allowed to point out that they are impolite, irrational and destructive, and suggest that they should strive to be less so if they want to be part of a polite, rational and cosnstructive community. If they want to be part of an impolite, irrational and destructive community, then may I suggest 4chan? ;):p
 

KiwiNoob

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However, let me be clear. They offer a service, we buy it or we don't. It's a transaction. If you think Paradox owes you something (with the exception of those purchasing Expansion Pass), you are very mistaken

This is a mind-set that unfortunately has plagued the game industry for the last decade and it's dead wrong.

As people purchasing a product or service it's not unreasonable to expect that product or service to work. If you by a new car and find that when it's delivered it has no tyres and the engine doesn't work you take it back or get them to fix it. This is how things work but for some reason a large number of game developers/publishers think it doesn't apply to them.

I think that on the whole Paradox are one of the exceptions to that rule and a lot of other game developers/publishers would do well to follow their example in terms of community engagement and long term support/expansion of their games. To the extent of people complaining about some countries getting TLC over other countries I agree that the negativity is unjustified.

That said - the frustration that DLC's continue to be pumped out when the underlying game is broken (and has been since launch) in terms of the AI is absolutely justified. I, like a lot of other people, purchased a game that doesn't work.

Last night I crushed Italy as Albania without any allies. In fact - they kind of crushed themselves because all I did was put a couple of divisions on the port and then Italy spent 6 months destroying all their equipment in half hearted naval invasions. By the time I sent 4 divisions over to Italy none of their divisions had any guns.

After 1 year - this is not ok.
 

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To me the question of politeness, tone, etc. is partly a matter of upbringing, naturally so. But where it applies to criticizing Paradox's actions and products on a Paradox forum website, there is an aspect of practicality involved as well, one that should, to a rational person, bear a great deal more weight.

What is my (hypothetical) reason for posting something critical of Paradox, it's actions, and/or its products on its own website? Venting? Nope, I could do that on any public forum. Personal attack? Maybe, but what possible benefit is that going to provide to me, beyond getting my account ganked for breaking forum rules? None.

No, clearly the only rational reason for doing that is because I want Paradox to see my grievance and do something to correct it. So it follows that if I go about things in a manner that lowers the odds of my words being heeded, I am doing a harm to myself, working against my own interest. If I want anyone at Paradox to read my words and give them weight, or more, give them enough weight that they choose to alter their actions/product in response, then it naturally follows that personal attacks, profanity, and other types of abusive or unhinged behavior are only going to hurt my chances.

When you attack, people defend. It's as natural as Newton's third law which tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If I want to make you defensive, I attack; so if I want to make you receptive, I should offer you something you value. In this case a good thing to offer is a positively phrased suggestion on how Paradox can make their own situation better, not a negatively phrased demand that they make MY situation better. And when it comes to game devs like those at Paradox, all it really takes to make them see a situation as an improvement for themselves is to make a sound case that it will improve their game. They want their game to be good; they want people to like it. That's like a legal and harm-free intoxicant to them!

Counterproductive - I hate X and Y features, Z was a stupid idea, and all you people are blah-blah unhinged insulting rant comments.
Productive - you could expand your fanbase considerably if you added feature A, altered feature B like so, and made feature C an option that could be configured by the player, plus it might make future balancing easier if you changed feature D from hardcoded to moddable

...and so on... Put simply, etiquette is nice, important and yadda yadda, but I am not going to convince anyone to adopt good manners based on that kind of argument, especially if their mother and father failed to teach them any. I might, however, convince someone who actually wants to see their grievances addressed to at least pretend to have some manners. That to me is as good as firing the Bitter Peace event.
 
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Dalwin

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To me the question of politeness, tone, etc. is partly a matter of upbringing, naturally so. But where it applies to criticizing Paradox's actions and products on a Paradox forum website, there is an aspect of practicality involved as well, one that should, to a rational person, bear a great deal more weight.

What is my (hypothetical) reason for posting something critical of Paradox, it's actions, and/or its products on its own website? Venting? Nope, I could do that on any public forum. Personal attack? Maybe, but what possible benefit is that going to provide to me, beyond getting my account ganked for breaking forum rules? None.

No, clearly the only rational reason for doing that is because I want Paradox to see my grievance and do something to correct it. So it follows that if I go about things in a manner that lowers the odds of my words being heeded, I am doing a harm to myself, working against my own interest. If I want anyone at Paradox to read my words and give them weight, or more, give them enough weight that they choose to alter their actions/product in response, then it naturally follows that personal attacks, profanity, and other types of abusive or unhinged behavior are only going to hurt my chances.

When you attack, people defend. It's as natural as Newton's third law which tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If I want to make you defensive, I attack; so if I want to make you receptive, I should offer you something you value. In this case a good thing to offer is a positively phrased suggestion on how Paradox can make their own situation better, not a negatively phrased demand that they make MY situation better.

Counterproductive - I hate X and Y features, Z was a stupid idea, and all you people are blah-blah unhinged insulting rant comments.
Productive - you could expand your fanbase considerably if you added feature A, altered feature B like so, and made feature C an option that could be configured by the player, plus it might make future balancing easier if you changed feature D from hardcoded to moddable

...and so on... Put simply, etiquette is nice, important and yadda yadda, but I am not going to convince anyone to adopt good manners based on that kind of argument, especially if their mother and father failed to teach them any. I might, however, convince someone who actually wants to see their grievances addressed to at least pretend to have some manners. That to me is as good as firing the Bitter Peace event.
Very well said, much more eloquent than a simple, "you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar."
 

lihp

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Dear community,

I am not a heavy forum user. I do enjoy reading the developer diaries and the occasional threads, but that's about it. However, yesterday, with the announcement of Death and Dishonour, I was taken aback by the amount of vitriol the devs have to go through it appears EVERY time they want to announce something.

"Why did you do X and not Y?"

"Why didn't you include Z? You don't listen to us."

"When are you going to do A, B, C? Everyone wants to see that."

"I will stop playing this game because you didn't do M before N and as quickly as I wanted it."

Now hold on a minute. Forums are a place meant for discussion, debate and comment, no doubt about that. Indeed, everyone here is absolutely entitled to say what they please. However, we are consumers. While we enjoy Paradox games, we are in no way entitled to subject developers to a non-stop tirade of insults, demands, ultimatums and interrogations. Our comments can, of course, offer guidance to the developers in terms of what we want to see content-wise. However, let me be clear. They offer a service, we buy it or we don't. It's a transaction. If you think Paradox owes you something (with the exception of those purchasing Expansion Pass), you are very mistaken. Matters little if you played their games since Victoria 1 and Crusader Kings 1 or you started with Stellaris. None of this entitles anyone to treating Paradox as if they serve at our pleasure.

I enjoy Paradox games. They aren't perfect of course. Hearts of Iron 4 has a myriad of issues. However, I still enjoy it a lot, alongside their other products. So, when I see new content, I weigh its value and decide on a purchase. Most of the times I purchase. Sometimes I don't. I read the reviews, get some expectations and decide. If I happen to regret it, no harm done.

Therefore, it is highly presumptuous, not to mention arrogant when people flat out accuse Paradox of:
A) giving preferential treatment to some countries over others for whatever ridiculous reasons
B) accuse Paradox of milking money, particularly since their DLC policy has allowed their games to last well beyond the lifespan of a normal title (CK2 is 5 years old and still receiving content)
C) accuse Paradox of not managing issues properly

Game development is not an easy task. Constantly competing resources, compounded with an ever-growing list of demands is a recipe for an organizational nightmare. Yet, only the developers know the full situation and know why and how they decided on certain things. So, I would suggest people refrain from making charged and bloated accusations particularly about things they are not fully informed on.

This post wasn't written to shame or fight anyone. This post is entirely to remind people that a healthy community is built around dialogue. If you are unhappy, please voice it, but don't presume to speak for everyone, nor to put words into the developers' mouths. Paradox is doing a fine job of communicating with us and listening to our wishes, but they equally deserve our patience and understanding, even when they err.

I disagree with your post - simple as that. While of course you are right with your implied reminder on civil discussion and interaction, your post falls short on several levels:
  1. (Mis-) Communication: Civil discussion and interaction happens on many levels. This ranges from the simple "Please can you elaborate on why you did ..." to "Screw you, this is unplayable and broken". Depending on the course of interaction, I consider breaking points, where one approach is more fitting than the other ( @Had a dad - might want to add somethign here ;) ).
    • 1st month after release: "Please can you tell me, when and how do you improve the bugs in the AI?" - answer: "Which bugs? Please provide screenshots and savegames, since we need to dive into it and examine it." - Reply: loads of posts, screenshots, savegames,...
    • 10 months after release: "Riots", sarcasm, irony and the obligatory "Screw you, this is umplayable and broken." esspecially after the main #1 issue was not mentioned as #1 priority in the first DD.
    • Bottom line on this specific case: The community reaction was imho well deserved and due to communication. Apparently Paradox had a different view on community expectations. So: Paradox themselves created the situation to make it happen.
  2. Underperformance: People for some time with Paradox games are getting (actually we are!) used to receiving an unfinished product upon release. (Well in my specific case HOI3 worked for me perfectly from day1 on, while for others it broke down). Yet HOI4 after 10 months is still in a similar state as on release. That is a new one for Paradox and by 100% underperformed (from the perspective of the players feeling that way). Of course @podcat and others probably disagree, yet this is the way it feels like.
  3. Buyer and (disappointed) Trust: Paradox has created a basis with a devoted playerbase and fanbase. Buying by these people is not "throwing some money" at Paradox, but more like "We know you get it right soon (TM) so no worries." Some of those players have a growing feeling of disappointment, which in turn can evolve to simple anger. It should not, still it is understandable and... human.
  4. Not a Hearts of Iron: What you may say? There are certain expectations to Hearts of Iron, which for the most part goes to complexity, immersion, close to history and p0rn (where p0rn is about tank/ship/airplane fights, models,... and generals of abnormal high skills and special abilities). As such Hearts of Iron evolved steadily from HOI1 to HOI3, becoming more complex up to a point where HOI3 even offered automation of areas of the game by the AI (trade AI, research AI, supply AI, ...) so players could concentrate on things one by one.
    • So the expectations for HOI4 imho were that Paradox improves even further in the sandbox style, where acurate historical outcomes happen and the player maybe even has to struggle to achieve them. Somehow realizing it was not a walk in the park for eg. Roosevelt, Churchhill,...
    • I for myself wondered how Paradox might find an intelligent solution to nation interaction, offering more options and ways of interaction by improving intelligence/spy system, deepening research, offering ways to create historically accurate (and similarly effective) divisions,... while offering more levels of freedom. Actually by removing artificial rulesets even more, while keeping existign game mechanics.
    • HOI4 is a huge step backward: air combat in HOI4 is (still) fixed with beaming planes vs flexible air combat in HOI3, trade in HOI4 is rather annoying compared to HOI3, nation interaction is railroaded and (apparently) less flexible than before,... Supply system basically removed (not really but somehow... yeah it is).
    • Bottom line: To me the general impression is: HOI4 is an arcade-mass version of Hearts of Iron, but not a Hearts of Iron game at all. Too much simplification and more artificial "game rules" than before.
Remark: esspecially the 4th point is seldomly mentioned or discussed, yet I do believe it to be a major reason for veteran players to appear so demanding to Paradox. Alas with HOI4 they will stay disappointed forever, since the basic game mechanic wont be changed.

(Final) bottom line: Paradox themselves created a certain degree of expectations by great performances over time. People are increasingly disappointed and react accordingly. Not only do I understand, but I am one of them by writing some posts "too pointy", ironic or sarcastic.
 

14lokk1

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To me the question of politeness, tone, etc. is partly a matter of upbringing, naturally so. But where it applies to criticizing Paradox's actions and products on a Paradox forum website, there is an aspect of practicality involved as well, one that should, to a rational person, bear a great deal more weight.

What is my (hypothetical) reason for posting something critical of Paradox, it's actions, and/or its products on its own website? Venting? Nope, I could do that on any public forum. Personal attack? Maybe, but what possible benefit is that going to provide to me, beyond getting my account ganked for breaking forum rules? None.

No, clearly the only rational reason for doing that is because I want Paradox to see my grievance and do something to correct it. So it follows that if I go about things in a manner that lowers the odds of my words being heeded, I am doing a harm to myself, working against my own interest. If I want anyone at Paradox to read my words and give them weight, or more, give them enough weight that they choose to alter their actions/product in response, then it naturally follows that personal attacks, profanity, and other types of abusive or unhinged behavior are only going to hurt my chances.

When you attack, people defend. It's as natural as Newton's third law which tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If I want to make you defensive, I attack; so if I want to make you receptive, I should offer you something you value. In this case a good thing to offer is a positively phrased suggestion on how Paradox can make their own situation better, not a negatively phrased demand that they make MY situation better. And when it comes to game devs like those at Paradox, all it really takes to make them see a situation as an improvement for themselves is to make a sound case that it will improve their game. They want their game to be good; they want people to like it. That's like a legal and harm-free intoxicant to them!

Counterproductive - I hate X and Y features, Z was a stupid idea, and all you people are blah-blah unhinged insulting rant comments.
Productive - you could expand your fanbase considerably if you added feature A, altered feature B like so, and made feature C an option that could be configured by the player, plus it might make future balancing easier if you changed feature D from hardcoded to moddable

...and so on... Put simply, etiquette is nice, important and yadda yadda, but I am not going to convince anyone to adopt good manners based on that kind of argument, especially if their mother and father failed to teach them any. I might, however, convince someone who actually wants to see their grievances addressed to at least pretend to have some manners. That to me is as good as firing the Bitter Peace event.

Well, your reason may differ to other's reasons. I believe that some portion of the playerbase is at least somehow bitter at Paradox for not fixing their problems, and hence use this forum to voice their displeasure at the state of the game (venting or otherwise). Who are we to stop them? Sure, it doesn't help things, and it's not nice, but why justification do you have for banning their expressing their negative opinion? Besides, I believe that if a significant portion of the playerbase voiced their anger (politely or otherwise), Paradox will be forced to address their concerns.