Constructive community anyone?

[mcmaha1]

Dear community,

I am not a heavy forum user. I do enjoy reading the developer diaries and the occasional threads, but that's about it. However, yesterday, with the announcement of Death and Dishonour, I was taken aback by the amount of vitriol the devs have to go through it appears EVERY time they want to announce something.

"Why did you do X and not Y?"

"Why didn't you include Z? You don't listen to us."

"When are you going to do A, B, C? Everyone wants to see that."

"I will stop playing this game because you didn't do M before N and as quickly as I wanted it."

Now hold on a minute. Forums are a place meant for discussion, debate and comment, no doubt about that. Indeed, everyone here is absolutely entitled to say what they please. However, we are consumers. While we enjoy Paradox games, we are in no way entitled to subject developers to a non-stop tirade of insults, demands, ultimatums and interrogations. Our comments can, of course, offer guidance to the developers in terms of what we want to see content-wise. However, let me be clear. They offer a service, we buy it or we don't. It's a transaction. If you think Paradox owes you something (with the exception of those purchasing Expansion Pass), you are very mistaken. Matters little if you played their games since Victoria 1 and Crusader Kings 1 or you started with Stellaris. None of this entitles anyone to treating Paradox as if they serve at our pleasure.

I enjoy Paradox games. They aren't perfect of course. Hearts of Iron 4 has a myriad of issues. However, I still enjoy it a lot, alongside their other products. So, when I see new content, I weigh its value and decide on a purchase. Most of the times I purchase. Sometimes I don't. I read the reviews, get some expectations and decide. If I happen to regret it, no harm done.

Therefore, it is highly presumptuous, not to mention arrogant when people flat out accuse Paradox of:
A) giving preferential treatment to some countries over others for whatever ridiculous reasons
B) accuse Paradox of milking money, particularly since their DLC policy has allowed their games to last well beyond the lifespan of a normal title (CK2 is 5 years old and still receiving content)
C) accuse Paradox of not managing issues properly

Game development is not an easy task. Constantly competing resources, compounded with an ever-growing list of demands is a recipe for an organizational nightmare. Yet, only the developers know the full situation and know why and how they decided on certain things. So, I would suggest people refrain from making charged and bloated accusations particularly about things they are not fully informed on.

This post wasn't written to shame or fight anyone. This post is entirely to remind people that a healthy community is built around dialogue. If you are unhappy, please voice it, but don't presume to speak for everyone, nor to put words into the developers' mouths. Paradox is doing a fine job of communicating with us and listening to our wishes, but they equally deserve our patience and understanding, even when they err.

 

[Draconaes]

Well stated.

By all means, criticism can and should be offered, but there are constructive and destructive ways to do so.

 

[Dalwin]

This community is actually better than most game forums.

I see it as an inevitable part of the evolution away from face to face interaction and toward virtual interaction. Personal contact encourages a certain degree of etiquette and manners that are becoming uncommon on the internet. In the old days, if someone mouthed off too much they might catch a knuckle sandwich for their trouble. Now any snot nosed punk can spout off with almost complete impunity.

The lack of manners and simple courtesy online is becoming so prevalent that it is probably the leading factor steering people away from multi-player games.

 

[Gwydion5]

Therefore, it is highly presumptuous, not to mention arrogant when people flat out accuse Paradox of:
A) giving preferential treatment to some countries over others for whatever ridiculous reasons
B) accuse Paradox of milking money, particularly since their DLC policy has allowed their games to last well beyond the lifespan of a normal title (CK2 is 5 years old and still receiving content)
C) accuse Paradox of not managing issues properly

I agree with a lot of what you say except this. I'll give you an example using point A. Imagine if PDS did nothing but spent time working on and releasing DLC for Germany and Russia. Would it be fair for people who play (or wanted to play) Allied Nations like England, France, USA, etc... to voice discontent or disapproval? Even if Germany and Russia were the most played nations? So then it could be considered legitimate criticism for players to complain that certain nations are receiving preferential treatment over other nations? Would it be objective to point out that DLC 1 and DLC 2 had a list of X,Y,Z done to Germany and Russia?

The answer is obviously yes, even if PDS produced metrics showing Germany and Russia being the most played nations, and catering to the majority of it's player base, those who wanted to play other nations could be right in criticizing PDS for not giving enough attention to other nations. The trap and trick here is understanding that what is "ridiculous" is subjective, and that you can't make a list of topics and say they are absolutely something as it really depends on the argument being presented.

Other than that I agree with a lot of what you said. Hopefully the community can be a bit more understanding of each others views, while respectfully ignoring flamebait and trolls. I for one can't wait for 1.4 so I can get back on to things like objective data, stats, and testing features. This back and forth bickering of Pro PDS / Anti PDS is getting old, even if I feel they are legitimate points. And I do not claim innocence on this matter either, but I try to be objective about my positions and I try to argue them honestly and with integrity.

 

[Axe99]

Great post @mcmaha1, totally agree. People should by all means criticise, but doing it constructively and mindfully makes it much better. That said, I agree with Dalwin, in that the PDS community is much better than most (and even the HoI forums, which tends to be a bit more 'aggro' than the other games in my experience, is a good deal more civilised than say your average Call of Duty forum - or at least was last time I swung by those parts).

This community is actually better than most game forums.

I see it as an inevitable part of the evolution away from face to face interaction and toward virtual interaction. Personal contact encourages a certain degree of etiquette and manners that are becoming uncommon on the internet. In the old days, if someone mouthed off too much they might catch a knuckle sandwich for their trouble. Now any snot nosed punk can spout off with almost complete impunity.

The lack of manners and simple courtesy online is becoming so prevalent that it is probably the leading factor steering people away from multi-player games.

There are definitely less factors to encourage people to stop and think about what they're saying on the internet. I still think it's possible to encourage better and worse cultures though (one of the reasons the PDS/PI community is better than average). We can but hope .

 

[adam_grif]

I do try to be constructive and mostly positive, but what you're witnessing is basically the frustrations of the community causing people to lash out at everything. The game is still in need of a lot of improvements to basic functionality. I think that it's probably going to be in a good state after 1.4 comes out, but it's taken a long time to get here. Longer than I think most of us expected.

A lot of folks have grown bitter expecting things to be fixed much faster than they were. It was also not a good look from a PR perspective to start pumping out DLCs when there were still a lot of issues with the game. I know why they did it (it's not like artists and lead game designer can fix the AI or anything and these people can't sit idle for 6 months while other people fix things up), but at the same time, I understand why people got mad.

When you're mad, or upset, or hate someone, or whatever, it creates a halo effect where you interpret everything they do in the worst possible light. As the internet meme goes,

In order to win over the community, the HoI4 team is going to need to be going out of their way to be generous with their updates and DLC pricing for the near future and deal with the current problems the game has in a timely fashion. It's not necessarily fair, but it's in Paradox's best interest to have the community to be happy.

The fact that they previously said that the next DLC would be a bigger expansion, and now they're instead bringing out a "country pack" is probably not a good direction to have gone in. I appreciate that they wanted to focus on making the free update larger, that's cool, but the DLC coming out alongside this is taking up a slot on the expansion pass / Field Marshall edition, which is not what people were expecting. There's quite a few malcontents in the season pass thread. I reiterate my advice to Paradox if they want to win back the community - err on the side of generosity and keep in constant communication.

 

[ggsimmonds]

Going to have to disagree with the OP. This forum is far better than other game forums. You want to see a poisonous community? Check a sports game or FPS forum.

None of the examples you listed in the OP are examples of vitriol. Are there cases on the forum? Absolutely. Is it at the level where you have to make a shame on you community thread? Not at all.

 

[Axe99]

Going to have to disagree with the OP. This forum is far better than other game forums. You want to see a poisonous community? Check a sports game or FPS forum.

None of the examples you listed in the OP are examples of vitriol. Are there cases on the forum? Absolutely. Is it at the level where you have to make a shame on you community thread? Not at all.

This depends on one's standards of communication. I used to help manage a small community gaming forum back in the day, and there are posters on these forums that would have been 'gently encouraged' to lift their game over there (we can all be glad I don't do anything like that these days - although we had a very good community because of it - the focus wasn't as much on what people said, but rather on respect - ie, how people said it - it wouldn't be appropriate for a game-related forum though, as that needs to be a bit more inclusive). It's not as if we have a thread like this every week (I can't remember when the last one was, although I know there have been others), and in the context of some of the DoD-related comments, I wouldn't think it was inappropriate (although I do think the subject line is potentially a tad inflammatory).

That said, I do agree the standard of this community is generally very good in the context of gaming forums .

 

[Secret Master]

This is just me stepping to remind everyone to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks.

I don't want to have to step in and make the community behave itself.

 

[Bomber678]

Dear community,

I am not a heavy forum user. I do enjoy reading the developer diaries and the occasional threads, but that's about it. However, yesterday, with the announcement of Death and Dishonour, I was taken aback by the amount of vitriol the devs have to go through it appears EVERY time they want to announce something.

Game development is not an easy task. Constantly competing resources, compounded with an ever-growing list of demands is a recipe for an organizational nightmare. Yet, only the developers know the full situation and know why and how they decided on certain things. So, I would suggest people refrain from making charged and bloated accusations particularly about things they are not fully informed on.

This post wasn't written to shame or fight anyone. This post is entirely to remind people that a healthy community is built around dialogue. If you are unhappy, please voice it, but don't presume to speak for everyone, nor to put words into the developers' mouths. Paradox is doing a fine job of communicating with us and listening to our wishes, but they equally deserve our patience and understanding, even when they err.

I think you should use the forum more or read more in it, because I think you missinterpret alot here. Most complains especially on the HoI4 forum part are totally justified and especially "Paradox is doing a fine job of communicating with us and listening to our wishes" part is not done here! The main reason why especially in HoI4 alot feel like this is probably because the HoI4 team is compared to the overall paradox standards and even if you only think the best about them, they either communicate wrong or can't keep up with the others.

Just check this weeks announcements and what happened for the long time customers:

ck2: After the last dlc expansion which had some unfinished and broken parts, this week we got an incredible free (AI)fix and expansion on the in the last dlc (M&M) sold features. Was it annoying that everyone bought a broken dlc? Yes. Did the paradox team fix it and lift it up to their high values? Yes. Am I statisfied about it and will I buy the next dlc? -> Totally yes, I want to throw money at them.

eu4: After the last dlc (mandate of heaven) they didn't only fix AI/dlc mechanics properly now, no they even gave us map improvements and new events for an minor nation (hungary) not even related to the last dlc and they gave it free of charge. Did the paradox team fix it to their standards and gave us some free stuff to make us happy? Yes. Am I statisfied about it and will I buy the next dlc? -> Totally yes, I want to throw money at them.

stellaris: The last utopia dlc still has many bugs, but at least had a large awesome patch (actually free, because it was AI and core mechanics) too. Is paradox working on a fix for the dlc? Yes. Are they adding many quality of life things with it? Yes. For free? Yes. Am I totally statisfied about the pure announcement of the patch and totally trust the team and want to already buy the next dlc? -> Totally yes, I want to throw money at them.

HoI4: The last dlc got totally put down by the community and for that didn't get any proper fix / expansion on the there newly sold mechanics / AI. So after the last dlc shock that this was even called a dlc, have most players been happy about the "lessons learned" (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...i4-dev-diary-reflections-and-romania.1012681/) -> Yes. I mean, just read the lessons learned! I couldn't say anything better than podcat wrote about the real and big problems. I was really happy about that developer blog two weeks ago, because it seemed the HoI4 team is finally working like the other teams and deserve our trust.

So now two weeks later we get a content pack announcement which literally tells the player "REMOVED"
1. "The expansion gave the commonwealth minors a healthy bump, but still - the only content we really added for 40% of our players only happened extremely rarely in singleplayer games."
-> Sounds exactly like DoD.
2. "Only when historical focuses were switched off, and the AI decided to go down the fascist path, did the German player get to see any new content (news events aside). And even then, the content was usually little more than an alliance request."
-> Sounds exactly like DoD.
3. "So that was the first big lesson: new content needs to tie back to major countries, particularly Germany. Thankfully, we had already decided that our next DLC should focus more on the Axis, so we wouldn’t have to try too hard to come up with reasons why Germany should be involved."
-> Sounds exactly like they didn't do this in DoD.
4. "The other issue we noted ourselves was that the Commonwealth nations had very little interaction with each other."
-> Sounds exactly like DoD nations.
5. "They each sat in their own little part of the world, mostly doing their own thing with their AI neighbours. That meant that even if you were playing one of the countries that got a new focus tree, you were surrounded by countries that still used the generic trees. All the interesting developments in your region were caused by you. We wanted to change that as well, and force you to pay attention to the world around you."
-> Sounds exactly like DoD.

So seriously, how can anyone NOT be mad about the HoI4 team currently???

Language good sir, please mind it. Being upset is fine, breaking forum rules with foul language is not.
/TinyWiking

 

[Ksyr]

I am in no way mad about the HOI team. I'm not happy about the state of the game, but that is far from getting personal about it. I have faith that the team is doing their best and I am also certain that if they didn't make this game then no one would.

 

[Daddl]

I understand people being upset who bought the expansion pass. After a year, they get 25 Euro worth of their promised 50 Euro, and if the next DLC really is supposed to be a 25 Euro one (bigger than any DLC for any newer Paradox game) it will take another half a year or even longer until that one hits. It wasn't exactly advertised in a wrong way, but from what Paradox did in the past people surely expected something else. And then after TfV they said the next DLC is going to be big, and now they release an even smaller one.

Add to that some people don't value especially the Focus Trees nearly as much as Paradox claims they should according to the work put in them, so you not only have disappointement but a large conflict about what features are to be considered useful at all. Add to that the issues the game has which comes down to a really long list, from air and naval warfare to manpower and division spam to lack of events, lack of diplomacy options, nonsensical peace conferences etc.
There sure is a lot to improve.

Now I play the game anyway, even if its currently just with mods, and I enjoyed the ~150 hours put in vanilla and another ~150 hours with mods, no doubt. I have patience and I'm sure the game will be a blast in one or two years, just like EU4 and CK2 suddenly were at some point after a few years.

But not everyone is as patient, knows a thing or two about what can possibly go wrong in game development and keeps calm when he is confronted with things contradicting what was said in the past. I think the criticism is relatively civilized (well, always compared to what would happen in other game forums) and I understand where it comes from, which is not good because usually I don't.

 

[Krask]

So say you buy a car and one of the wheels consistently comes loose and falls off, the electrics randomly fail, the engine idles erratically etc. You complain about this to the car company and they give you the 'we're working on it'. After a year instead of fixing the wheel they give you new jazzy seat covers and cupholders that you never use.

Are you entitled to complain that the product you've bought is substandard quality and it appears the manufacturer is doing little about it? I've not partaken in the shit slinging going on but that doesn't mean it's just the vocal minority that feels they've been gimped.

 

[Dalwin]

So say you buy a car and one of the wheels consistently comes loose and falls off, the electrics randomly fail, the engine idles erratically etc. You complain about this to the car company and they give you the 'we're working on it'. After a year instead of fixing the wheel they give you new jazzy seat covers and cupholders that you never use.

Are you entitled to complain that the product you've bought is substandard quality and it appears the manufacturer is doing little about it? I've not partaken in the shit slinging going on but that doesn't mean it's just the vocal minority that feels they've been gimped.

Ever notice how weak all analogies which compare cars to software are? You might as well compare a piece of lumber to a song. Both are produced and both are sold but that is more or less where the similarity ends.

 

[REDDQ]

Ever notice how weak all analogies which compare cars to software are? You might as well compare a piece of lumber to a song. Both are produced and both are sold but that is more or less where the similarity ends.

What he emphasize is that both products can be broken/damaged/badly designed and he has a right to voice dissatisfaction. It is popular because cars have extremely complex development cycle, yet another thing in common with software, and cannot be accused of being just a tree cut to pieces.

 

[Ksyr]

What he emphasize is that both products can be broken/damaged/badly designed and he has a right to voice dissatisfaction. It is popular because cars have extremely complex development cycle, yet another thing in common with software, and cannot be accused of being just a tree cut to pieces.

I think the points are that, yes, he can complain, but cars are on a completly different level. It grinds my gears a little when I see that particular comparison.

 

[REDDQ]

I think the points are that, yes, he can complain, but cars are on a completly different level. It grinds my gears a little when I see that particular comparison.

As long as the message is clear and correct level hardly matters I believe.

 

[rcbricker33]

My most hated topic but one I completely agree on. I wish that the anonymity of the internet didn't make people feel 10 foot tall and bullet proof. It is not what you say, but how you say it. Because the only punishment one must deal with is the revoking of privileges here on the forums, members sometimes say things that I think if they were to say those things face - to - face would result in some pretty heated arguments and possibly close calls.

That said, I believe that everyone on the forums is entitled to their position as satisfaction with a game is subjective. I just wish that the members would take a breath and read what they are posting and I oneself how they would feel if someone said this to them at work.

The car analogy is not a bad one just the way it is presented. In the example they are always talking about a car that no one would ever buy. wheels fall off, electrical doesn't work engine quits. Unfortunately these examples are all of a car that does not perform as a car. HOI IV performs as a game. We are all here because we play that game. Start to finish I have never had the game crash (like HOI and HOI II did). Each aspect of the game works. I may not like how it works, but it works. Hell even the AI works (sometimes it seems to be driven by a pack of drunken monkeys).

So the Car analogy might work better if we said the car will get you where you want to go each and every time, but that the radio will only play Swedish stations, the power windows go down when you push up or that the window buttons unlock the car and the door lock buttons pop open the trunk. All the features work, just not how we expected it too.

just my 2 cp

 

[Sanny]

I'm upset because I bought the expansion pass, and I'm upset because we were given something completely different to what the Devs said months ago, and notice I said months, we've been waiting for this expansion for 3-4 months and this is all we get?

 

[REDDQ]

The car analogy is not a bad one just the way it is presented. In the example they are always talking about a car that no one would ever buy. wheels fall off, electrical doesn't work engine quits. Unfortunately these examples are all of a car that does not perform as a car. HOI IV performs as a game. We are all here because we play that game. Start to finish I have never had the game crash (like HOI and HOI II did). Each aspect of the game works. I may not like how it works, but it works. Hell even the AI works (sometimes it seems to be driven by a pack of drunken monkeys).

So the Car analogy might work better if we said the car will get you where you want to go each and every time, but that the radio will only play Swedish stations, the power windows go down when you push up or that the window buttons unlock the car and the door lock buttons pop open the trunk. All the features work, just not how we expected it too.

just my 2 cp

That's a bit nitpicky don't you think? One of the biggest problem people have with HoI4 is an AI which is like the heart of the game. It works, sure. Just not like people would expect to. How radio playing only Swedish stations is suppose to be a comparison to game's heart failing? Air warfare is horrible, naval combat is meh... if my ground forces at least wouldn't try to fight battleships in their transport boats I would be much happier.

Also, the example with a car no one would buy. Car's problems might and probably are not apparent at the first sight (them French cars and their electronics) and people notice them after some exploitation... as they often do with games.