~ Constitutional Werewolf Convention of 2017 ~

[Wagonlitz]

Or, written as a rule: "Deadline shall be at the time designated by the GM, and votes made on or after deadline will be considered invalid. For example, if deadline is set at 12:30 a vote cast at 12:29:59 will be valid. A vote cast at 12:30:00 will not. In the event of disputes, the forum clock shall be used as the official time."

I think it's too verbose. (Yeah I'm aware of the irony given how I normally am really verbose.)

This is good, although I would incorporate Falc's suggestion of changing 12:00 to 20:00.

The time given should be the deadline; not anything else, since that just risks confusing people about what actually are deadline.


Also I think all the proposed deadline sentences are too verbose or feels stilted.

I'd propose we use what Skobie and I always use in lites (save for removing the reference to the forum reboot).

I.e. I think we should use the below. That seems clear and short to me. It's a single line and leaves no ambiguities.

Deadlines for votes are given by 21:00 GMT. (PLEASE CONVERT THIS TO YOUR OWN TIME ZONE IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID FUTURE CONFUSION). A vote at 20:59 will count, whereas a vote at 21:00 will not.

 

[Wagonlitz]

post 1

This is an exhibition game to show the OT what we are up to over at the OT Forum games (link). As the name indicates these games used to be played right here in the OT and we will demonstrate the original OT forum game, Werewolf.

Werewolf is a game pitching an uninformed majority (the villagers) against an informed majority (the werewolves). During the night the werewolves eat a villager, during the day the villagers (and werewolves that have assumed a human form) votes on who is the most likely werewolf and lynch him (or more seldom her). The game then carries on until the villagers have lynched all werewolves or the werewolves can eat all villagers. Sounds easy?

Well, we wouldn't be Paradox gamers unless we added a historocal setting (link to role playing background) and some "slight" modifications to the rules to make the game less dumbed down and more challenging (link to game rules). But the game is not just what you see on the surface in the game thread, there is a lot of plotting and paranoia going on behind the scenes, using the forum conversations. Some say this is the best part of the game.

To experience it first hand just say "in" in a post in this thread. But before you do so remember you need to be online every day for about two weeks and cast a vote every day.

The game will start Xth of February and the signup is limited to 42 players but beginners will have precedence over regular players.

You wrote historocal instead of historical.

Also we need to mention at some place in the OP that we have the permission of Blade! to avoid the risk of a lock.
Also why the cap of 42 players in particular?

What I wanted to say with that example is that we need to focus on the first post.

The exact wording of tiny bits of the rule section, like deadline, isn't all that important. The importance here is, like marty said, to make it small enough not to intimidate new players.

I agree. As long as the rules are clear and short they're secondary.

Cultist: Works with the Werewolves, and wins if the Werewolves win. Learns the identity of a wolf master at game start and that Werewolf knows the cultist's identity in turn. Cultists are not pack specific even though they will start in contact with one pack.

Do we really want to use that cultist variant? In my opinion it's more confusing than the pack specific cultists, who can only jump ship once a pack is dead. (It also means that the cultists will be more involved in the pack, since they know everybody and are full members of the pack, instead of that master thing where they often only know one person and are to some extent on their own.)

One Eye Open: If the One Eye Open is attacked by wolves or an assassin at night he has a 50% chance (not caught asleep/off guard) of killing one of his attackers before succumbing to the attack.

Perhaps we should keep OEO as a secret trait; we've tried it a few times to prevent an OEO from stepping up as mouthpiece and hence force the wolves to risk it if they want the mouthpiece gone. In my experience it worked well to have it hidden.

Also why no blessed?

Guild member: Each member of a guild will know the names of the rest. The Guild will have several finite miscellaneous powers it can use. For it to work, at least two members must vote for the same target and the same power to be used.

Perhaps you should also note that a majority has to vote for a power to be used. And you need to detail whether an abstaining counts as a no or not.

Cloak of Invisibility: A player possesing a cloak of invisibilty may once during the cause of the game become invisible, i.e. scans of him that night will return "nobody at home", wolf attacks will fail as if the player was GA protected, assasin attacks will miss and the player will even dodge the lynch mob making the runner up lynched instead of him etc. However wearing the cloak will also block any other actions of the wearer for that day/night cycle such as voting, scans, attacks and even counting for parity etc.

Do we really want to include the cloak?

 

[johho888]

You wrote historocal instead of historical.

Didn't run it through a spell checker. It was an example for you to criticise and/or improve upon.

Also we need to mention at some place in the OP that we have the permission of Blade! to avoid the risk of a lock.

Good point.

Also why the cap of 42 players in particular?

Because a really big game tend to make a lot of players to lose interest if it drags out. 42 in particular because the hitchiker's guide to the galaxy, also it is a multiple of 3 so you could apply the 1/3 baddies rule. 39 might actually be better with the conversation limit at 5.

Do we really want to use that cultist variant? In my opinion it's more confusing than the pack specific cultists, who can only jump ship once a pack is dead. (It also means that the cultists will be more involved in the pack, since they know everybody and are full members of the pack, instead of that master thing where they often only know one person and are to some extent on their own.)

Personally I think the pack specific one is inferor because the cultist can just as easily sell out his pack and then jump ship. But I'd say it's up to whoever hosts to pick whatever cultist rule they like, just keep it something simple.

Perhaps we should keep OEO as a secret trait; we've tried it a few times to prevent an OEO from stepping up as mouthpiece and hence force the wolves to risk it if they want the mouthpiece gone. In my experience it worked well to have it hidden.

Good point, or we could just skip it. Hidden roles aren't much fun if you only know you are important after you died...

Also why no blessed?

Simplicity. Also the not fun part from above.

Perhaps you should also note that a majority has to vote for a power to be used. And you need to detail whether an abstaining counts as a no or not.

In my opinion it is inferor to require a majority rather than just two votes. Having two votes means it is a) much more likely a guild power is used. b) it adds an incentive to keep your fellow guild members alive because when you are down to 1 member you can't use anything.

Do we really want to include the cloak?

It's a good thing to give a guild. I was thinking several smaller guilds would be the way to go to get more people involved behind the scenes and then you need some different things to give the different guilds.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Because a really big game tend to make a lot of players to lose interest if it drags out. 42 in particular because the hitchiker's guide to the galaxy, also it is a multiple of 3 so you could apply the 1/3 baddies rule. 39 might actually be better with the conversation limit at 5.

I'd say 42 then. But for the reference, but also because I think that getting to 40 if possible is preferable. And you can get around the PM limit if needed.

Good point, or we could just skip it. Hidden roles aren't much fun if you only know you are important after you died...

Might be better to have it visible than gone, since it can be quite useful to the goodies.

Simplicity. Also the not fun part from above.

I think blessing is something we shouldn't take out. Blessed and cursed really are two sides of the same coin and I don't think only having one would be a good idea.
And why cursed if no blessed?

In my opinion it is inferor to require a majority rather than just two votes. Having two votes means it is a) much more likely a guild power is used. b) it adds an incentive to keep your fellow guild members alive because when you are down to 1 member you can't use anything.

What I meant was at least two men have to vote for it, but a majority of the people voting for any power to be used needs to vote for it. As you wrote it you could have multiple powers used a day. A and b vote for the use of Æ, c and d for Ø, and e and f for Å and now you need to fire 3 things according to your rules.

It's a good thing to give a guild. I was thinking several smaller guilds would be the way to go to get more people involved behind the scenes and then you need some different things to give the different guilds.

Good point? WHat about some healing powers then to the guilds? Especially if we have no blesses.

 

[Ithvan]

(enter Ithvan; he sits; stands; conjures parchment out of crafty right-hand sleeve; unrolls it; gasps for air; is violently ill over parchment, clothes, shoes, and untidy meeting hall floor)

(exit Ithvan)

 

[johho888]

I'd say 42 then. But for the reference, but also because I think that getting to 40 if possible is preferable. And you can get around the PM limit if needed.

Yes, but we want to keep it simple.

Might be better to have it visible than gone, since it can be quite useful to the goodies.

It's not really needed from a game balance point of view so I think I would remove it since it doesn't really add to the fun.

I think blessing is something we shouldn't take out. Blessed and cursed really are two sides of the same coin and I don't think only having one would be a good idea.
And why cursed if no blessed?

Simplicity and fun. Less traits = shorter rule section. Cursed is something that can be experienced as fun for the cursed since he will then also experience the baddie side of the game.

What I meant was at least two men have to vote for it, but a majority of the people voting for any power to be used needs to vote for it. As you wrote it you could have multiple powers used a day. A and b vote for the use of Æ, c and d for Ø, and e and f for Å and now you need to fire 3 things according to your rules.

Yes, and that is what I intended. Simplicity/less lawyer talk. Of course if a Guild has one spy Power and two people vote to use it on player A and two people vote to use it on player B there has to be some majority rule for that but I Think I would inlude that in the Guild PM rather than have it in rule sections. Again, to keep it as short as possible.

Good point? WHat about some healing powers then to the guilds? Especially if we have no blesses.

I think this can be handled in the Guild PM like this:

X, Y, Z, Å and Ä. You are the Thatchers' Guild. You have the following Powers:

1 single seer scan
2 single doctor protection
1 single brutal use

To activate a Power two of you need to vote to use the same Power on the same player like this: "vote to use seer scan on Wagonlitz". Each guild member can only vote to use one Power each day. If more than two of you vote to use the same Power but on different players a majority is needed to use the Power.

 

[Falc]

Deadlines for votes are given by 21:00 GMT. (PLEASE CONVERT THIS TO YOUR OWN TIME ZONE IMMEDIATELY TO AVOID FUTURE CONFUSION). A vote at 20:59 will count, whereas a vote at 21:00 will not.

Single lines aren't necessarily better, big blocks of ALL CAPS aren't either...

I also like johho's inclusion of nightly orders and I would specify what 'not counting' means.

"The deadline for votes and all nightly orders is 21:00 GMT. Votes and orders made at 20:59 will count, but votes and orders made at 21:00 will be ignored.

The deadline is given in GMT; we strongly recommended you convert this to your local time zone to avoid future confusion."

 

[Sleepyhead]

We should have some code of conduct as to how we behave. When I got back after a hiatus for several years I was perplexed how:

1. Many insults were flown at me (might just have been the Split) for role playing
2. utter unaccepted it is to edit posts containing a vote (even way before deadline). People started jumping on me me for it

We should refrain from such things in this game.

Also, guys, if shitty councils are in, try not to (over)analyse their composition. It leads to the crapper in every single game it's been tried. Literally. Every. Single. Time.

 

[Falc]

While I wasn't there for it, I would say that editing a post with a vote in it should be strictly forbidden. Doesn't mean you need to bite someone's head off when they do it, but for the sake of the game, I feel it cannot be accepted.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Yes, but we want to keep it simple.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by going around the limit. You can have a pack of 6---it just means that the wolves will need to make a PM without the GM and hence must place orders in their role PMs. With the usual rules where the last places order counts.

But you needn't have 6 man strong packs. 42 players is 14 baddies so make two packs of 5 and 4 unattached. It could be a sorc and a starting apprentice plus 2 cultists. Or a sorc and three cultists. Think I prefer to have as few cultists start unaligned though, since unaligned cultist is often said to be boring to new players.
Also I don't think we should dabble into three packs.

Simplicity and fun. Less traits = shorter rule section. Cursed is something that can be experienced as fun for the cursed since he will then also experience the baddie side of the game.

I think this can be handled in the Guild PM like this:

X, Y, Z, Å and Ä. You are the Thatchers' Guild. You have the following Powers:

1 single seer scan
2 single doctor protection
1 single brutal use

To activate a Power two of you need to vote to use the same Power on the same player like this: "vote to use seer scan on Wagonlitz". Each guild member can only vote to use one Power each day. If more than two of you vote to use the same Power but on different players a majority is needed to use the Power.

Seems fine.

"The deadline for votes and all nightly orders is 21:00 GMT. Votes and orders made at 20:59 will count, but votes and orders made at 21:00 will be ignored.

The deadline is given in GMT; we strongly recommended you convert this to your local time zone to avoid future confusion."

Seems fine.
Though the "the deadline is given in GMT" part feels a bit stilted and superfluous.

 

[johho888]

Also, guys, if shitty councils are in, try not to (over)analyse their composition. It leads to the crapper in every single game it's been tried. Literally. Every. Single. Time.

Last game I think councils worked fine, probably because noone was (over)analyzing them?

 

[Comm Cody]

Point Three, can you clarify it, seeing that I have no idea what it is.

Yea to point one and two, and I will join in the game

 

[Wagonlitz]

We now have 2 new players in the lite who wants to try WW; I need at least 2 more players to be able to start with 3 wolves, and 6 players for it to be a full game.

Why not join the lite so that we hopefully can gain two players. We are after all talking about how to get more players and here we have the chance of getting two if only the lite can get off the ground. So come on, at least two more players!

 

[marty99]

Seems this has died out. Is there any output to be taken away from it? I've never been a rules guy myself

 

[johho888]

Seems this has died out. Is there any output to be taken away from it? I've never been a rules guy myself

I can sum up my suggestion for a minimal rule set after the feedback I got, mostly from Wagonlitz. But ultimately whoever hosts needs to have something he wants to work with.

What I think we, and especially the ones with English as a first language, could work a lot more on is the opening post of the thread that explains what werewolf is all about and why we are doing an exhibition game. I made a suggestion but this I think someone like you could do a lot better.

 

[marty99]

I can sum up my suggestion for a minimal rule set after the feedback I got, mostly from Wagonlitz. But ultimately whoever hosts needs to have something he wants to work with.

What I think we, and especially the ones with English as a first language, could work a lot more on is the opening post of the thread that explains what werewolf is all about and why we are doing an exhibition game. I made a suggestion but this I think someone like you could do a lot better.

I could certainly do that part. I will aim to have one done in a few days. I like yours but I think it needs to a bit more comprehensive.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I agree that we need a good opening post.

Also at the moment we really need somebody to step up and volunteer to GM. Then we really can start to discuss rules and roles/traits---with the GM of course having the most say, but running things through here pre posting the game to make sure that things are good. But we need a GM for that.

 

[PanzerCorps]

I suggest making the rules more accessible by turning them into song. For example:

Spoiler: I write sins not "In" posts

§1. You sign up for the game by requesting so in a post in this thread.
§2a. No new players will be admitted into the game once it has started, unless substituting for a current player.
§2b. Players who have been subbed due to failure to participate may not sub for others
§3. You are responsible for keeping your private message inbox empty enough to receive private messages. You are yourself responsible for any messages missed due to your inbox being full.

Becomes

Oh, well, imagine,
As I'm pacing the threads in the rpg subforum,
And I can't help but to read—
No, I can't help but to read an exchanging of words,

"What a beautiful lite game! What a beautiful lite game," says a forumer to the other,
"Ah, yes, but what a shame, what a shame the entire player list is full"

I'd chime in with a
"Haven't you people ever heard of
applying to goddamn sub?!"
No, it's much better to deal with new players
With a sense of poise and rationality.
I'd chime in,
"Haven't you people ever heard of
applying to goddamn sub?!"
No, it's much better to face these kinds of things
With a sense of...

Oh, well, in fact,
Well, I'll look at it this way,
I mean technically we're less likely to have an autolynch,
Well, this calls for a toast.
So, send the PMs, send the PMs.

Oh, well, in fact,
Well, I'll look at it this way,
I mean technically our inboxes are infinite,
Well, this calls for a rewrite now,
So, the third rule is redundant, the third rule is redundant!!

I'd chime in with a
"Haven't you people ever heard of
applying to goddamn sub?!"
No, it's much better to deal with new players
With a sense of poise and rationality.
I'd chime in,
"Haven't you people ever heard of
applying to goddamn sub?!"
No, it's much better to face these kinds of things
With a sense of poise and rationality, again

I'd chime in with a
"Haven't you people ever heard of
applying to goddamn sub?!"
No, it's much better to deal with new players
With a sense of poise and rationality.
I'd chime in,
"Haven't you people ever heard of
applying to goddamn sub?!"
No, it's much better to face these kinds of things
With a sense of poise and rationality, again...

 

[PanzerCorps]

On a more serious note, if we're actually waiting till summer to do this as someone suggested, I would like to put my name forward to GM. Obviously someone far more experienced than me should come up with the actual role/trait distribution as I wouldn't know what makes for a balanced/fun game half as well as most people here but I think I'm quite good at the infrastructure stuff: I'm pretty much always online during summer so can do frequent votecounts, answer player questions quite quickly and never be late for an update, and also I usually maintain up to date and I like to think pretty and informative front pages.

 

[johho888]

Post 3 example, updated

THE RULES

The players represent a village where each member has a role that is kept secret. Most of them are just plain, ordinary Villagers, but there are some Werewolves lurking in their midst. The goal of the Villagers is to eliminate all of the Werewolves, while the goal of the Werewolves (and allies) is to achieve 1:1 parity with the villagers (at which point they can openly rise up and overwhelm the Villagers, thereby winning the game). Of course only one pack can remain.

The game is split in two sections, Night and Day.

The game begins with a Night, the time when the Werewolves decide among themselves whom to eat and nightly active roles/traits are used. The Werewolves and the nightly active players submit their choices/orders to the Game Moderator. Any orders not delivered in time will be IGNORED.

Daily actions are handled in the following order:
1. Guild meeting
2. Votes
3. Leader
4. Lynch
5. Brutal

Nightly orders are handled in the following order:
1. Spy spying
2. Sorcerer scan
3. Seer scan
4. Priest scan
5. Assassin
6. Guardian Angel
7. Doctor
8. Werewolf
9. Padre

During the Day, the Villagers (including the Werewolves, who have assumed a human form) meet together to decide who is the Werewolf and therefore to be lynched for the greater good of the village. When a player has decided whom to vote for, they type vote Player X in bold font and preferabbly at least size 3, this to ensure that your GM notices the vote. It is not allowed to edit a vote. If a player decide to change his vote, he types unvote Player X - vote Player Y. The "unvote" is there to help me count the votes. I will however count changed votes even without the "unvote", only somewhat slower and with a bigger risk of getting it wrong so please help the GM and use "unvote" when you change your votes.

Abstaining from voting three times during the game will result in autolynching (or being substituted by another player).

The deadline for nightly orders as well as voting is 21:30 CET (20:30 GMT) according to the forum clock and shortly after this the lynching takes place and the result of the Nightly activites is presented. Post submitted 21:30 will count while posts submitted 21:31 will not.

Spectators and Ghosts ("dead" players) may haunt, taunt and flaunt. They may not reveal any secret/inside information. When making a ghost/spectator comment, please use a non-white colour (and keep off the GM colour, lightgreen).

Forged Private Messages (PMs) are allowed. Quoting or forging PMs from the GM is not allowed.
Screenshots of PMs from players or the GM are not allowed and anyone caught doing it will be autolynched.
Discussion of PM numbers is forbidden. Players are encouraged to remove message numbers when sending them to others.

THE ROLES

Villager: Has no special abilities.

Werewolf: May choose a victim to eat each night. There will be two wolf packs and they hunt on alternating nights.

Seer: May scan one person per night to see if he is a Werewolf or unclaimed Apprentice (100% success). Any other role will appear as a regular Villager to the Seer.

Priest: May scan one person each night to see if he is a Sorcerer, an Apprentice or a Cultist (100% success). Any other role will appear as a regular Villager to the Priest.

Sorcerer: Works with the Werewolves, and wins if the Werewolves win. May scan one person each night to see if he is a Seer, a Priest, an Apprentice or a Cultist (100% success). Any other role will appear as a regular Villager to the Sorcerer.

Apprentice: Only becomes active if his master is killed. A scanner can have more than one Apprentice but in the case of the scanner's death only the first Apprentice will become active. Apprentices works just like their former master. The first scanner who finds an Apprentice (and survives the night) will make him his Apprentice. An Apprentice does not know that he is one until he is scanned.

Guardian Angel: May protect one person against a Werewolf attack, but can't choose to protect the same person two nights in a row and can never protect himself.

Doctor: May protect one person each night but can't choose to protect the same person two nights in a row. In case of an attack, the Doctor has a 50% chance of saving that person. The person saved will be unable to send in any votes or orders for the next day/night cycle but may also not be attacked directly while recovering. If the doctor is attacked, however, all patients are also attacked. If a patient wakes up again, he will remember one of the attackers.

Cultist: Works with the Werewolves, and wins if the Werewolves win. Learns the identity of a wolf master at game start and that Werewolf knows the cultist's identity in turn. Cultists are not pack specific even though they will start in contact with one pack.

THE TRAITS

The traits (extra roles) may be had in addition to any of the above roles.

Padre: May visit one person each night but can't visit the same person two nights in a row, if that person is hunted and killed by a wolf or an assassin, the name of one of the perpetrators will be given to the padre.

Spy: Can spy on a player to get a clue to one of the player's trait or the player's role. A spy can't claim an apprentice.

Assassin: Can send one nightly order to kill someone. After this his ability is used up.

Brutal: If lynched or brutalized, has the power to immediately kill one person before being subdued.

Cursed: If a Cursed person is targeted by the Werewolves, he becomes a werewolf. It will be revealed as a "no kill during the night". The Cursed will be unaware he is cursed until attacked by a Werewolf.

Guild member: Each member of a guild will know the names of the rest. The Guild will have several finite miscellaneous powers it can use. For it to work, at least two members must vote for the same target and the same power to be used.

Leader: Can save a lynchee by redirecting the lynch to a player with at least half the votes of the lynchee. Loses the leader ability if he doesn't leaderlynch an evil player (werewolf, cultist, sorcerer, sorcerer's apprentice).