Constantinople, another what if?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I haven't seen this one before but what if the Byzantine Empire never fell? Either to the Crusaders in 1204 ot the Turks in 1453? How would the map of the Middle-East look like?

Would the Byzantines have gone on the offensive again, or would they continue to desperately defend their homelands. Would the West be more forthcoming with help if there was no grudge for 1204? Al lot of what if's here...

 

[unmerged(4745)]

Add no Manzikert 1071 and you got the complete map.

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

You're spoiling the fun

Serious: that too is a viable option

 

[unmerged(4745)]

I love to think about what have happend if the Seldjucs have been beaten and fought back. Because then we may have seen a Bysantine reneissance in next century spreding the cross back to mid-east....

 

[unmerged(4386)]

Game the Question

There is a game where Byzantium frequently survives and becomes one of the most powerful empires in the world. It's called "Lords of the Earth", which can be found via:

www.throneworld.com

shameless plug...

 

[viper37]

Bizantium is a playable nation in 1419 on EU 2. A bit late, but with luck and skill, you can survive...

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by viper37
Bizantium is a playable nation in 1419 on EU 2. A bit late, but with luck and skill, you can survive...

I did it in the 1448 Byzantium campaing for EU1. Started out with 2 provinces, now I have more than 20. Needles to say that the Turks were wiped out.

 

[unmerged(4745)]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


I did it in the 1448 Byzantium campaing for EU1. Started out with 2 provinces, now I have more than 20. Needles to say that the Turks were wiped out.

That must be something to tell he Greek..

I have resently read a good book about Bysans. "Byzantine commonwealth", Dimitry Obolensky, Phoenix Press, ISBN 1-84212-019-0

 

[Agelastus]

A Byzantium surviving into modern times even is possible if we predicate the change occurring with a victory at Manzikert. The 1204 empire was still a going concern, but it was weakening-the Crusaders just accelerated the rush to the abyss a little.

So, Byzantium survives into the twentieth century...............does a Gallipoli equivalent occur? What happens..........

Let's throw it back to the floor!

 

[joak]

The Byzantines had at least one serious problem, in that they really were considered "alien" by the rest of Europe, which meant they had no natural alliances with either other Christian or Moslem nations. This mistrust predates 1204--it probably made 1204 possible. Even at the very end, when you'd think they'd perceive a "common enemy," there was deep and often bitter distrust on both sides.

Because of that, I think there was a good chance the empire was going to be squeezed from both sides regardless, and it was going to be hard to recover if it faltered. If it did make it to modern times, it might well have filled almost the same roll as Turkey did--viewed as only partly a European nation, not quite part of the same system of dynastic and religious events that were shaping the modern west.

 

[unmerged(598)]

It really is a fascinating to examine a survivable Byzantine Empire, and it's long lingering affects.

First though, how to keep it out of Turkish hands for 200 years? The Turks threaten Europe on and off until Vienna, so what can we do to keep the Empire, and restore enough territory on the European side of the Bosphorous to keep it viable.

Second, joak's point is something to take into account, the hostility faced from Catholic Christendom. I have little doubt, that a non-schism in the Church, or a schism where Orthadoxy is the dominant, rather than minority religion is the key for Byzantium. There is simply too much animosity between the Churches, which prevents a more united front in the face of the Turks.

Now, if Byzantium survives post 1453, where does it expand?
What happens to the Balkans, where presumably no Mohacs means an independent Bohemia and Hungary?
Does Austria ever emerge as a power, or does Hungary become the dominant Balkan power.

Finally, would Byzantium ever be in the position to cross into Asia Minor?

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by joak
The Byzantines had at least one serious problem, in that they really were considered "alien" by the rest of Europe, which meant they had no natural alliances with either other Christian or Moslem nations. This mistrust predates 1204--it probably made 1204 possible. Even at the very end, when you'd think they'd perceive a "common enemy," there was deep and often bitter distrust on both sides.

Because of that, I think there was a good chance the empire was going to be squeezed from both sides regardless, and it was going to be hard to recover if it faltered. If it did make it to modern times, it might well have filled almost the same roll as Turkey did--viewed as only partly a European nation, not quite part of the same system of dynastic and religious events that were shaping the modern west.

Despite genral mistrust the nation could probably gain a lot of prestinge one the Renaissance started (if it started of course, as the fall of Constantinople created a large influx of Greek knowledge into Italy). We may not forget that as the centuries passed by that there was an increasing ove for all things classical. It even came so far that there was a real Romano/Hellonophilia going on in the 17-19th centuries. And as the Byzantine Empire would have been recognised by the west as the remants of the Roman Empire (after a lot of debating and searching old record and stuff)... Well, they might have actually gotten some new support, maybe even an apology for 1204 (if that happened in the scenario).

Of course the Byzantine Empire had to survive first.
If it did adn maybe even crossed back into Asia Minor it could potentially have played a unifying role between Christians and Muslims in the area. The empire would most definitly have turned itself into an industrialised state (around Constantinople there would be large port, trade center and accompagnying industries), there would be (possibly) a great understanding with the Russian state (in whatever form, but no tzar) on religious grounds. This understanding could have prevented some or all Balkan conflicts, maybe even WW1.

I say maybe because nationalism would be a large factor in the Empire's stability (imagine all those Turks wanting their own state, or wanting to join their independent brethren in an independen, but smaller Ottoman Empire). There would be socialist movements, liberal movements, democratic movements (these would have their basis in the American and French revolutions, but also in the Athenian Expirement). All these things could very well trigger a world war, but with a different face this time. We could even see the fall of the Empire after such a war (as happened in Austria, Germany, Russia) and a change to a Republic Byzantine State, maybe even a loss of some territories, depending on what side they took in such a conflict.

Also, the name of the state would most definitly not be Byzantium, as they never called themselves that. What it would be i don't know, maybe Imperium Romaion (or something in such a fashion)?

 

[Mariani]

Really couldn't see how Byzantium could really do anything to forestall its demisie while remaining Greek Orthodox. Maybe, if it held on long enough, it would find a natural ally in an ascendant Russia...

 

[unmerged(4745)]

Byzantine allies

The allies may be Russia and may be Bulgaria and Serbia if it survives the Hungarian pressure. Bulgaria and Serbia were now and then both enemies and allies to Byzans and Russia "sponsored" Byzans with gold in 14/15th century.

So if it survives into 16th c. ther will be a mighty alliance between the second and third Rome. This alliance is as fearsome especially in the north as the Turk expansion in the south was.

The population in Anatolia was not Turkish speaking or Turkish before the Seldjuks conquered it. The land was not empty when the Seldjuks conquerred Asia Minor after Manzikert and the Greek speaking population around the coasts was a relict of the prior Greek speaking Asia Minor. The population majority in this region has changed their language many times during the ancient history, due to political reasons.

 

[joak]

I think the only way the 15th century Byzantines revived is if they take benefit from a complete Ottoman collapse, such as after Timur demolished them (at Angora I think). I agree you could then imagine an enlarged Greek state following something like this, and if wars in the Turkish interior don't consume all their energies, eventually a modern nation-state. Because of their relative diplomatic and geographic isolation, I can't imagine them being a major player in the west; they'd probably be worried about preventing any other states' hegemony over Italy or the Balkans, but they'd be guaranteed to face a threat from the east if they ever became too distracted elsewhere.

I agree with Sten & Mariani about a possible Russian alliance, but in the 15th century, that isn't much direct help. Maybe an independant Georgia and Armenia in the east? With the Turks gone, Serbia and Bulgaria are naturally rivals as much as allies in the Balkans. Though I'd guess that same logic would add Hungary as a potential ally.

I suspect the relative isolation might cause them to lag behind in entering the modern (economic) era; OTOH a vigorous merchant's revival could more than counteract this. They'd still be the gateway to the east for quite a while.

Despite genral mistrust the nation could probably gain a lot of prestinge one the Renaissance started

Speculation on my part, of course, but I don't think so--the renaissance emphasized Rome more than Greece, IIRC, and I'm sure it would have done it even more so if the Byzantines still existed as a viable rival of the Italian city states.

 

[David Comnenus]

This Greek state that formed might have included W. Anatolia, Greece, Albania?, and southern Bulgaria. What happens from here is up to the emperors. If Byzantium is run by idiots, perhaps another group from AM, the Mamelukes, or perhaps an emerging Persia would have handled the AM side of things. Another European crusade or just a Balkan war might have handled the rest. If it is run by geniuses, Byzantium might have expanded against the AM states and those in the Balkans. After that, who knows?