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junassa

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Do you have a save where you have this problem?

Sorry I unwatched this thread. I have a save where I exploited this issue, but it's about 100 years after the fact.

Aziza Bloodaxe (id 1086743 and venerated in case I wrote down the wrong number) is the female in question. I gave her a consort, their child became heir so I could get another bloodline (ended up getting three with him iirc).
 

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faiuwle

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Hmm, I looked at that save, and it looks like all of Aziza's children have her bloodline. You don't have it because you descended from several men who were not married matrilineally, so they couldn't pass on the bloodline.

Anyway, I created the mod a while ago, actually, here can get it here (from Steam) or here (direct download from github).
 

junassa

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Hmm, I looked at that save, and it looks like all of Aziza's children have her bloodline. You don't have it because you descended from several men who were not married matrilineally, so they couldn't pass on the bloodline.

Anyway, I created the mod a while ago, actually, here can get it here (from Steam) or here (direct download from github).

Thanks. I'm going to sub but I think I'm gonna keep exploiting the bug for awhile lol.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Sounds like you're saying that in order for a child of a consort to inherit a mother's bloodline is for the consort to be the product of a matrilineal marriage.

Re reading the thread my first post in this thread is a bit misleading in the sense that I've had a child of a consort gain the father's bloodline, but never the mother's. Not sure why people aren't getting the father's.
 

faiuwle

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No, I'm not saying that, your character in that save is not the child of a consort. The child of a consort was your character's great-grandfather, and he was not married matrilineally, so he didn't pass on the matrilineal bloodline he received from his mother.

I'm also not sure how it's an exploit to intentionally lose a bloodline. It looks like that bloodline was an ancestor veneration bloodline, it wasn't going to prevent you from getting other bloodlines (and clearly didn't, since the great-grandfather has three bloodlines of his own).
 
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junassa

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No, I'm not saying that, your character in that save is not the child of a consort. The child of a consort was your character's great-grandfather, and he was not married matrilineally, so he didn't pass on the matrilineal bloodline he received from his mother.

Oh ok. That wasn't the reason why I posted the save but I was wondering about that, because someone said saint bloodlines acted like patrilineal. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

junassa

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I thought you posted the save because you didn't get Aziza Bloodaxe's bloodline? If that's not it, where should I be looking for the lost bloodline?
I meant the other bloodlines she has, from her father and grandfather. If she was male and had a consort (or for that matter if it was a matri marriage) the children would have all the bloodlines. IMO consort system should work like matrilineal marriages.
 

faiuwle

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Oh, I see, yeah. That's not actually helpful for testing the mod since the person with the bloodline is dead, but yeah, the mod should fix those cases.
 

majdavlk

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I'm also not sure how it's an exploit to intentionally lose a bloodline.

to forge a new one, or get rid of its bonuses
 

Anthropoid

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How common was matrilineal or enatic across the scope which the game represents?

Not an expert on medieval history and certainly not across the very broad cultural scope of the game. But based on the patterns in HRAF, my guess would be that matrilineal and enatic were quite rare, even within the large geographic and temporal scope of the game?

Based on that: maybe the rationale behind the various "nerfs" of those playstyles is to undermine any tendency for those types of inheritance and social organization to become unrealistically prevalent in any given play line?

ADDIT: so at least one person "Respectfully Disagrees" with my QUESTIONS about how prevalent these forms of social organization were!? Or was it my reference to Human Relations Area Files!? :eek:

Like I said, "MY GUESS" so if I'm wrong please do provide us the evidence to correct me.

ADDIT PART DEUX: So this of course just touches the surface of the tip of the iceberg, but this seems about right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality#Matrilineality_in_specific_ethnic_groups

I vaguely recall there was an Iberian culture that persisted unassimilated into at least early medieval period which was matrilineal?
 
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Xenrek

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How common was matrilineal or enatic across the scope which the game represents?

Not an expert on medieval history and certainly not across the very broad cultural scope of the game. But based on the patterns in HRAF, my guess would be that matrilineal and enatic were quite rare, even within the large geographic and temporal scope of the game?

Based on that: maybe the rationale behind the various "nerfs" of those playstyles is to undermine any tendency for those types of inheritance and social organization to become unrealistically prevalent in any given play line?

ADDIT: so at least one person "Respectfully Disagrees" with my QUESTIONS about how prevalent these forms of social organization were!? Or was it my reference to Human Relations Area Files!? :eek:

Like I said, "MY GUESS" so if I'm wrong please do provide us the evidence to correct me.

ADDIT PART DEUX: So this of course just touches the surface of the tip of the iceberg, but this seems about right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality#Matrilineality_in_specific_ethnic_groups

I vaguely recall there was an Iberian culture that persisted unassimilated into at least early medieval period which was matrilineal?
well for 1, there are plenty of things that werent historically possible *at all* the game enables the players to do, if not outright encourages it. so simply making the arguement that "maybe enatic is worse in every possible way for *history*!" is kind of pointless. especially since the only way it could ever exist at all, let alone ever be "unrealistically prevalent" is if the player specifically chooses a single doctrine when reforming a pagan faith.

especially since the entire point of the game is *to* be ahistorical, have "what if" scenarios, which is difficult when 2 extremes that should in practice be only slightly different from eachother, enatic and agnatic, infact is simply agnatic doing everything enatic does, but better, with even more useful features.

that and the way enatic currently works *is* broken in many ways, and have numerous bug fixes associated with it, because so much of the game before enatic was an officially supported feature was coded to assume agnatic or agnatic-cognatic.

I mean enatic religions with merchant republics are a coin-toss whether they break every succession.


and to your actual "how prevalent was it historically", i mean, in what time period, in what region, at what scale? the game spans from 8th to 15th centuries and england to india (though ironically that last one, historically, i suppose isnt as far as one would think *wink*)

sure, at the highest levels of kingdoms and empires, you didnt see many women in power, because men were usually physically stronger and larger, so they were soldiers, and in a martial society that meant they were more valuable, coupled with a decent likelihood of women dying in childbirth AND women needing many children because of high infant mortality rates, meant societies "led by men" were more likely to be stable in a Dynastic sense.

but the farther down the hierarchy you go, the less the distinction was treated as a hard rule, because the lower you go and the less resources you have, another pair of hands is just another pair of hands, man or womans.

but again, as said above, the entire enatic doctrine is a massive "what if" scenario, of "what if this society took all the values, roles, responsibilties, and powers, typically associated with men of the time, and gave them to women", and by normal game mechanics involving male/female differences they were already "inferior" because of fewer kids and les time to get them, no reason for further mechanics to "nerf" it
 

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Ok, fair enough. Assuming your point about the computer opponents never really making use of the enatic lineality rules (except when it is the starting condition I suppose?) then my idea that they nerfed the enatic settings for player would not explain it.

However, the issue of "inheritance," i.e., females being in positions of power and the issue of lineality are two separate things aren't they? Not really a rebuttal to any of your points or an argument that the current system isn't in need of adjustments, just an observation.

My current unreformed Slavic Bohemian tribal society has the . . . uh . . . Cognatic-Agnatic (?) inheritance system which allows females to inherit if no suitable male heir exists, and that is with a strictly patrilineal form of uh . . . lineality. Based on the observation that there were quite a few female rulers of European realms in the middle ages, it would seem that this inheritance system (or one of the similar variants the game has) was fairly common in the period and scope of the game, even if patrilineal descent was the norm.
 

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How common was matrilineal or enatic across the scope which the game represents?

Not an expert on medieval history and certainly not across the very broad cultural scope of the game. But based on the patterns in HRAF, my guess would be that matrilineal and enatic were quite rare, even within the large geographic and temporal scope of the game?

Based on that: maybe the rationale behind the various "nerfs" of those playstyles is to undermine any tendency for those types of inheritance and social organization to become unrealistically prevalent in any given play line?

This is not a logical train of thought. We are talking about imaginary pagan reformations, which are enabled specifically by the game - and mechanics to assist that in being possible. There are already a TON of penalties for having a female ruler, even with all of those things enabled - for example, a woman is capable of having fewer children than a man, and eventually becomes sterile; she can die in childbirth, and the list goes on.

The way it functions in game now is not particularly logical given that it's offering you a mode of gameplay which is gamily nerfed in a way that isn't apparent.
 

Anthropoid

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This is not a logical train of thought. We are talking about imaginary pagan reformations, which are enabled specifically by the game - and mechanics to assist that in being possible. There are already a TON of penalties for having a female ruler, even with all of those things enabled - for example, a woman is capable of having fewer children than a man, and eventually becomes sterile; she can die in childbirth, and the list goes on.

The way it functions in game now is not particularly logical given that it's offering you a mode of gameplay which is gamily nerfed in a way that isn't apparent.

Well yes. The key thing is: will the computer opponents "exploit" any of the game features which facilitate dramatic alternative history for the player to explore. A game designed to provide an historical framework that allows the player to adopt dramatic ahistoric pathways is all well and good. But a game designed to provide an historical framework, which tends to go in dramatic ahistoric pathways even when the player does their best to stick to strictly historical choices from their perspective, probably wouldn't be so good at all.

In sum: mechanics that allow players to do things which were far outside the normal range of variation are fine, but mechanics which CAUSE the computer opponent and game world to veer far outside the normal range probably would have probably doomed the game at the box office.

So what I'm saying is, at least two explanations for why this inconsistencies in the game rules for matrilineal / enatic systems exist:
1. Oversight (already stated by others in this thread).
2. Intentional nerf(s) based on a concern (fear?) on the part of the developers that if these nerfs were not in place, the computer opponents would veer far outside the normal range . . .

I don't know enough about the pros/cons of the matrilineal / enatic rules, nor enough about how the algorithms in Clausewitz Engine lead to the computer opponent making decisions about changing inheritance and descent rules and laws. My supposition might be completely groundless, and explanation number one is the winner.

I'm just stating the possibility that the "nerfs" were not so much an oversight as an intentional thing.
 

junassa

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Anthropoid

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https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...orts-only-inherit-fathers-bloodlines.1141215/

So it's officially a bug, so get those extra bloodlines while you can. ;)

I'm slightly peeved that my bug thread wasn't the one commented on. I hope that doesn't mean old threads get buried.

Uh . . . the PDS response doesn't make it sound like it is necessarily an "official bug," rather that . . . it is a

. . . known issue that is currently being looked into.

Seriously I'm not trying to be patronizing or pedantic or argumentative :p

But a developer representative saying that something "is a known issue that is being looked into" doesn't make that issue an "official bug." It makes it an official "known issue that is being looked into" :D