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Cagliostro

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I am puzzled by the following behavior in game, and I'm not sure if it's a bug, or WAD. If it's WAD, I would say I have some pretty strong feelings that that's a bad idea.

Here's the thing: If you reform a religion in such a way that women can have concubines (called consorts), although the female can pass bloodlines through matrilineal marriage, they *cannot* pass them through consorts. Men, however, do pass them through all kinds of marriage, and *also* through concubines.

The problem with this, in terms of a player playing the game, is that if you care at all about bloodlines, and have a system where you can end up with a female ruler, you absolutely don't want a consort. Consorts will pass on claims without any bloodlines that aren't matrilineal (which are rare-to-nonexistent if you don't craft them).

If you actually care about bloodlines at all, then, it means that the 'feature' of having consorts is a pure negative - not only can you not carry bloodlines in your primary line with them, but any woman with a matrilineal marriage who also has consorts may stay pregnant with unuseful children that aren't sired by the one marriage that counts (for the mother's bloodlines).

It's also spiritually a little odd that the kid counts as the mother's dynasty, but because it's a random schmuck consort rather than a formal marriage, the man somehow counts as *more* of an obstacle to passing on the bloodline. I imagine, though I have not located it, that a mother with an unknown father passes on the bloodline.

Anyhow, if it is WAD, I'm puzzled, in that the expansion adds two major features, reforming a religion, and bloodlines, and one has the potential to randomly disable the other. I'm hoping it's considered a bug to be fixed.
 

jwalche

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Gender equality in CK2 is not perfect, especially more so for bloodline. It really seem like a bug unresolved to me.

Meanwhile, there are some workarounds that I have been using;

1. Don't play with female ruler, especially not until you have created all the bloodlines. Maternal bloodline is very hard to spread for the same reason, and you don't want to create maternal bloodlines. I play with equality doctrine. But male are still far better rulers in CK2. I try to have most of my direct vassals as female though. They become very royal once I get master seducer trait, more so if I made them lovers before landing them.

2. When you maternally marry a female character with a bloodline, don't give her consorts. I normally give 2~3 consorts to a kinswoman before landing her, but just a husband for those with a bloodline because I don't want the consorts to compete with her husband.

3. Islam guys are great for dynasty breeding, with or without bloodline breeding because they can get 4 wives instead of 1 wife and 3 concubines. In my current game, I am giving every newly built city to Sunni men, with four kinswomen as wives all maternally married to him. More so if that guy already has a bloodline of his own. For such a guy, I give 4 cousins and daughters who have my own bloodlines. My kinsmen are fine on their parents' court, as I can easily send them wife and concubines. But my non-ruler kinswomen are not taking maternal marriages unless they are first invited to my court. So I invite them, and marry four of them at a time to a Islam guy and land that Islam guy on a new city. I guess I am really playing this game with Cosmopolitan nature.
 

Xenrek

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As far as I know this has been reported as a bug, but I dont think its had a dev response yet.

But with how much enatic clans and matrilineal bloodlines are by mechanics worse in every way to agnatic/patrilineal, it wouldnt surprise me if it was intentional
 

Cagliostro

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As far as I know this has been reported as a bug, but I dont think its had a dev response yet.

But with how much enatic clans and matrilineal bloodlines are by mechanics worse in every way to agnatic/patrilineal, it wouldnt surprise me if it was intentional

That is sort of my fear, but it makes the whole idea of consorts unuseful, in that everyone who can do consorts also has the bloodline expansion.
 

josefrees

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I don’t think consorts is necessarily a good way to stack bloodlines anyway. If you are collecting bloodlines the randomness of four possible bloods is a lot worse than a monogamous marriage with a very straightforward blood mix.

Consorts are good for prestige from taking prisoners.

I do think there needs to be some attention paid to how bloodlines are inherited.
 

faiuwle

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In addition to this bug being fixed, there shouldn't be matrilineal bloodlines. All bloodlines should pass down according to patrilineal mechanics, which are pretty much gender neutral given that you're never going to be playing a woman who isn't matrilineally married. The existence of matrilineal bloodlines only makes female characters weaker. Is there any mod that fixes this and/or eradicates matrilineal bloodlines from the game?
 

Xenrek

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In addition to this bug being fixed, there shouldn't be matrilineal bloodlines. All bloodlines should pass down according to patrilineal mechanics, which are pretty much gender neutral given that you're never going to be playing a woman who isn't matrilineally married. The existence of matrilineal bloodlines only makes female characters weaker. Is there any mod that fixes this and/or eradicates matrilineal bloodlines from the game?
Honestly dont think the devs care much. I mean, they didnt even gove enatic clans a "present debutante" mechanic for Male characters, so if at any point your realm falls below a certain size/level; it becomes a slow spiral of never having enough Male characters available for marriage while still avoiding inbreeding

It's just added as a gimmick for people who want something unneccessarily harder than it needs to be

Same with female bloodlines, you arent *supposed* to want a female heir, so now by mechanics you can screw yourself for 2 generations if you get one and try to make it useful. One generation that earns the female bloodline, and the next to let it die so the third can remake it patrilineally
 

Eldath

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Wait, so are you saying that children from male consorts inherit their father's bloodlines?

If so then you should raid to capture the best bloodlines and keep them around while you go ahead and incorporate 1/generation through matrilineal marriage. A bit of incest will happen here and there though :/
 

nightgerbil

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Wait, so are you saying that children from male consorts inherit their father's bloodlines?

If so then you should raid to capture the best bloodlines and keep them around while you go ahead and incorporate 1/generation through matrilineal marriage. A bit of incest will happen here and there though :/
no hes saying children from male consorts dont get ANY bloodlines: not the mothers or the fathers.
 

CathyMe

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no hes saying children from male consorts dont get ANY bloodlines: not the mothers or the fathers.

Well that blows...
Children of consorts inherit bloodlines the same way as in a patrilinial marriage. They inherit matrilinial bloodline from the mother and patrilinial bloodlines from the consort father. The problem comes in when your female ruler already has patrilinial bloodlines, since the children won't inherit it. Basically, in an enatic society, consorts become useless once your rulers manages to acquire a patrilinial bloodline.
 

Cagliostro

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Yeah, it is a severe and unnecessary nerf to a playstyle already rife with nerfs. The only thing a consort child inherits from the mother is matrilineal bloodlines, should they exist, meaning that if you're foolish enough to have a woman leader, don't give her a consort, because he'll block up the 'good' kids she is getting from the matrilineal marriage.
 

faiuwle

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So, I decided to make a mod to try to fix this (by creating a decision that would give all your bloodlines to all your legitimate dynastic children), but I can't reproduce it. I modded every bloodline in the game to be patrilineal, and then loaded the game as the Chieftess of Daura (in Hausaland) in 867, who has a historical bloodline which is now patrilineal thanks to the mod. I gave myself a consort, and used the console to have a child with him, and my historical bloodline was inherited by the child. I even tried having a bastard whose real father was known, and the bastard still had my bloodline even though there was nothing on the bloodline saying that bastards would inherit it. What did you do to encounter this bug?
 

Tatterhood

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So, I decided to make a mod to try to fix this (by creating a decision that would give all your bloodlines to all your legitimate dynastic children), but I can't reproduce it. I modded every bloodline in the game to be patrilineal, and then loaded the game as the Chieftess of Daura (in Hausaland) in 867, who has a historical bloodline which is now patrilineal thanks to the mod. I gave myself a consort, and used the console to have a child with him, and my historical bloodline was inherited by the child. I even tried having a bastard whose real father was known, and the bastard still had my bloodline even though there was nothing on the bloodline saying that bastards would inherit it. What did you do to encounter this bug?
I might be remembering wrong, but doesn't her husband have the same bloodline as she does?

With all the bizarre behaviour around this sort of thing in HF, children of consorts "inheriting" bloodlines from their mother's husband would not be remotely shocking to me.
 

faiuwle

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Her husband doesn't have any bloodline. The bloodline that she has is supposed to be for both of them, but he and his son by his first wife do not have it.
 

nightgerbil

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ok My Sumenko Empress has 2 bloodlines: her fathers sons of raglabrok and her mothers architect. Shes married to a tengri clansman with blood of atilla. Its a matri marriage. I abducted some irishmen and I have 2 consorts with nine hostage bloodline. My son from tengri dude has 3 bllodlines as you would expect. My daughters father was a consort: she has NO bloodlines. None. Not her dads, not her mothers, not her grandmothers matri and not her granddads patri.
 

Ciniod

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Honestly dont think the devs care much. I mean, they didnt even gove enatic clans a "present debutante" mechanic for Male characters, so if at any point your realm falls below a certain size/level; it becomes a slow spiral of never having enough Male characters available for marriage while still avoiding inbreeding
Doesn't the option just give you a male character in an enatic society? I haven't actually looked at it because I never use the decision, but the decision that gives you a commander, holy man or noble all give you female characters in an enatic society.
 

nightgerbil

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Doesn't the option just give you a male character in an enatic society? I haven't actually looked at it because I never use the decision, but the decision that gives you a commander, holy man or noble all give you female characters in an enatic society.

Thats the point: there is NO debutante desc for an enatic ruler. You can get a female holy/noble/commander. You have NO way to generate a random male. I took to converting culture to norse and actively raiding (i was peaceful! LOL!) other religions for men. I was literally abducting any and all men, forcing them into consort to break any existing marraiges then marrying them to my vassals and daughters cos we couldnt generate enough men inside my empire . It was pretty dam crazy tbh.

Enatic needs some major buffs/fixs.