Considering Finland as a revolter

[unmerged(21937)]

At current, Finland can revolt as a new nation in 1720. But if the first real revolt attempt by the finnish nobility was the Anjala League in 1788, then ain't 1720 a bit too early?

Also, at current, Finland has provinces Nyland and Finland as minimums and loads of others (Österbotten, Savolaks, Tavastland, Kexholm, Kola and Karelia) as extras. All seems fine, but what if I'm playing Russia in the times of Napoleon and want to do what Alexander I historically did: create a very autonomical (for those times) grand-duchy from Finland, if I take it from Sweden. In game terms, I conquer the provinces Nyland, Finland, Österbotten, Savolaks and Tavastland from Sweden and then I wish to make them a russian vassal. But I can't because creating Finland as vassal gives it only Finland and Nyland. Or if I as a Sweden would like to choose an unhistorical choice (which doesn't exist as of yet, but it could) in Anjala League, giving in to the finnish officers demands for independent Finland.

So in both of these cases (Russia making grand-duchy of Finland and Sweden giving in to the Anjala League's demands) Finland should be getting more provinces than just Finland and Nyland. So I suggest Finland should have also Österbotten, Savolaks and Tavastland as minimals, to match the borders of the grand-duchy. And realistically, Kola and Karelia should be removed as extras, because Finland has never owned those lands and there haven't really much claims in finnish history for those lands either afaik.

Also, if it's made possible to make a grand-duchy Finland, then Finland could get it's own monarch-file with the general govenors as monarchs. Or if the Anjala League option would be made possible, then some appropriate finnish nobles could probably be found to act as monarchs.

Do you think this is just silly or a good idea?

 

[Incompetent]

Sounds reasonable. Also Finland should automatically have its national cultures set to ugric, scandinavian (similar to the way the US always gets just anglosaxon). As it is it usually only gets scandinavian (from Finland province being scandinavian), which is a bit silly seeing as Sweden gets ugric.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Sounds reasonable. Also Finland should automatically have its national cultures set to ugric, scandinavian (similar to the way the US always gets just anglosaxon). As it is it usually only gets scandinavian (from Finland province being scandinavian), which is a bit silly seeing as Sweden gets ugric.

I think that there is a problem in that, because normally revolters get the culture of their revolting capital as their state culture (ugric, if Nyland is capital). I don't know is it even possible to give a revolting country two or more cultures. But the problem of Finland getting scandinavian could easily be fixed by adding line "culture = ugric" to the revolt-file for Finland. But it would be better, if they would get both scandinavian and ugric as that's situation even today, though Finland has become more and more ugric during the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

[unmerged(16181)]

No, it is not possible for a revolter to get two cultures.

 

[unmerged(24379)]

Just edit the save file like I did See what I replied in that other post about Finland, in the bug forum. I played a successfull game as Finland (so far)...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Just edit the save file like I did See what I replied in that other post about Finland, in the bug forum. I played a successfull game as Finland (so far)...

Well, my point in this thread ain't to get to play with Finland (I could do that with scenario editor if I'd want to), but to promote historicality and even possibly get this implented to the betas, so that everybody could free Finland as a Russia, if they like to do so. Or if the other suggestion considering Anjala gets through, in some rare cases see AI Sweden free Finland.

 

[unmerged(24379)]

That would of course, be nice too... Maybe they could include the Norwegian constitution of 17th May 1814 (free from Denmark), and see if the AI could manage to withstand the Swedish attack without becoming vassal, or if they simply would just become vassal like in history...

EDIT: Could you give me a list of common Finnish names (forenames and last names)? Maybe 20-30 of them, and some possible army names too. For example, what is these in Finnish:

Royal Guard
Finnish Army
Nyland Regiment
Northern Army
Lappish Army
Eastern Army
Kvenish Guard
Finnish Guard
Freedom Army

etc...

And some add-names for kings:

The Great
The Mighty
The Terrible
The Magnificent
The Conqueror
The Mad
The Brave
The Warmonger
The Good
The Peaceful

And names for possible Finnish dynasties (to add a last name to king) would do great too, instead of me making (probably) silly names like "Errki I Tavast", "Mattis III Karjala", etc...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

EDIT: Could you give me a list of common Finnish names (forenames and last names)? Maybe 20-30 of them, and some possible army names too. For example, what is these in Finnish:

As I told you in that other thread, internet has many sites about given names in many languages. It's easier for you to pick some names there.

Royal Guard
Finnish Army
Nyland Regiment
Northern Army
Lappish Army
Eastern Army
Kvenish Guard
Finnish Guard
Freedom Army

Translations in the same order as you gave 'em.

Kuninkaallinen Kaarti
Suomen Armeija
Uudenmaan Rykmentti
Pohjoinen Armeija
Lapin Armeija
Itäinen Armeija
Suomen Kaarti
Vapausarmeija

The only one I didn't know how to translate was the Kvenish Guard, because I don't know what you mean by Kvenish (ain't any word in my english vocabulary anyway).

The Great
The Mighty
The Terrible
The Magnificent
The Conqueror
The Mad
The Brave
The Warmonger
The Good
The Peaceful

Again, translated in same order as you gave 'em.

Suuri
Mahtava
Julma
Suurenmoinen
Valloittaja
Hullu
Rohkea
Sodanlietsoja
Hyvä
Rauhanomainen

And names for possible Finnish dynasties (to add a last name to king) would do great too, instead of me making (probably) silly names like "Errki I Tavast", "Mattis III Karjala", etc...

Well, it's hard to think for any "possible" finnish dynasty as there never was one, but using those add-ons I gave, you probably get good enough names for your fictional monarchs.

 

[kurtbrian]

This belongs now.
*moved*

 

[unmerged(6105)]

No, it is not possible for a revolter to get two cultures.

Could make a event that triggers as soon as Finland exist that give them another culture.

 

[Khephren]

Could make a event that triggers as soon as Finland exist that give them another culture.

I use these

#Culture check# 
event = { 
	id = 8125
	random = no
	country = FIN
	name = "Culture Check Event" 
	desc = "With the revolt behind us, assimilating the various cultures in our state begins"
	style = 0 

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1619 }

	action_a = { 
		name = "Let us lead through diversity!" 
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = russian }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = ugric }#prevents duplication
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = scandinavian }#prevents duplication
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = ugric }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = scandinavian }
		} 
}
#Culture check# 
event = { 
	id = 8124
	random = no
	country = FIN
	name = "Culture Check Event" 
	desc = "With the revolt behind us, assimilating the various cultures in our state begins"
	style = 0 

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1619 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1819 }

	action_a = { 
		name = "Let us lead through diversity!" 
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = russian }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = ugric }#prevents duplication
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = scandinavian }#prevents duplication
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = ugric }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = scandinavian }
		} 
}

Two events just in case they revolt again later

 

[unmerged(21937)]

This belongs now.
*moved*

*expresses sincere sadness for the movement*

I were actually thinking that these things could be applied to the betas if enough supporting research is given upon the issue. Or can they still be, even if we discuss this in scenarios? Well, maybe we got rather much off the track at some point, but my original idea was still that...

 

[Swuul]

The only one I didn't know how to translate was the Kvenish Guard, because I don't know what you mean by Kvenish (ain't any word in my english vocabulary anyway).

The Kven People (Kveenit) is the original Finnish speaking minority in Norway (not including the Finnish students working in the fish-factories (they are said to make enormous money, though the working conditions could be better, or that's what my friend said 10 years ago when he spent a summer in a fish-factory) of Norway tough ). As Yngvar is from Norway, I guess he thought the Kven People are some sort of super finns Seriously, historically the Kven people has been said to lived in northern Sweden and Finland too. You can find more info on the Kven People
here .

However, in Finland the Kven People are not well known. Giving them an army should also mean Finnmark should be added as a core to Finland

 

[Arilou]

Well, actually I was considering using finland for something... (if I ever start actually DOING stuff as opposed to bitching about them) Namely to represent Johan III's duchy... It would be released as a vassal of Sweden in the 1500's, and if the historical route is followed it'd be reincorporated if Johan doesen't choose to fight Erik.

Now, if he *does* choose to fight (as opposed to surrendering) he has an opportunity to take Stockholm (inheriting and then becoming Sweden) if he fails he can choose to either become incorporated again (once the "historical" coup fires) or seek out on his own, I was thinking of having three choices once Johan III becomes king of Sweden (if he didn't just take Stockholm that is, but followed the other path) 1. Reintegrate the duchy, finland is inherited by sweden. 2. Keep the duchy's administration separate (Finland is made a vassal of Sweden with a duplicate of John's Vasa line as regents, up to Johan Casimir when the next event fires) 3. Separate the duchy from Sweden. (war, stab hit, desertions, revolts etc. etc. etc. , still uses John's vasa line as dukes though)

Then once John's line dies out (in the late 1600's) depending on the choices made before there are three choices, revert to the crown, remain a vassal or full independence (in each of the independent options a new duke of Finland is chosen, awakening the "finnish" monarchs) should the "full independence" option be chosen at this stage then Finland loses Scandinavian culture, if Full independence was chosen the last time then the default choice is now "Keep our Independence"

How does this sound to you?

 

[Ayeshteni]

Well, actually I was considering using finland for something... (if I ever start actually DOING stuff as opposed to bitching about them) Namely to represent Johan III's duchy... It would be released as a vassal of Sweden in the 1500's, and if the historical route is followed it'd be reincorporated if Johan doesen't choose to fight Erik.

Now, if he *does* choose to fight (as opposed to surrendering) he has an opportunity to take Stockholm (inheriting and then becoming Sweden) if he fails he can choose to either become incorporated again (once the "historical" coup fires) or seek out on his own, I was thinking of having three choices once Johan III becomes king of Sweden (if he didn't just take Stockholm that is, but followed the other path) 1. Reintegrate the duchy, finland is inherited by sweden. 2. Keep the duchy's administration separate (Finland is made a vassal of Sweden with a duplicate of John's Vasa line as regents, up to Johan Casimir when the next event fires) 3. Separate the duchy from Sweden. (war, stab hit, desertions, revolts etc. etc. etc. , still uses John's vasa line as dukes though)

Then once John's line dies out (in the late 1600's) depending on the choices made before there are three choices, revert to the crown, remain a vassal or full independence (in each of the independent options a new duke of Finland is chosen, awakening the "finnish" monarchs) should the "full independence" option be chosen at this stage then Finland loses Scandinavian culture, if Full independence was chosen the last time then the default choice is now "Keep our Independence"

How does this sound to you?

Moi, mitakuulu, natibyva, mikasurnimeun, moi moi (OK my Finnish REALLY sucks...but) o

Sounds like a wizard idea. Would like to see Finland play some kinda role in the game. I dont know how many times 1720+ has come round, rebels in Finland (come on, thats it you can do it....bugger) and there they went. I have incorporated many changes and stuff from this thread and the other one about minimum provs in revolt.csv, armynames, list of 50 top Finnish family names and monarchs, but a hooch of events would be nice, especially if they have a grounding in historical fact (I know very little of this area, alas)...so yeah, hit us with some goodies

yours
Ayeshteni

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, actually I was considering using finland for something... (if I ever start actually DOING stuff as opposed to bitching about them) Namely to represent Johan III's duchy... It would be released as a vassal of Sweden in the 1500's, and if the historical route is followed it'd be reincorporated if Johan doesen't choose to fight Erik.

Now, if he *does* choose to fight (as opposed to surrendering) he has an opportunity to take Stockholm (inheriting and then becoming Sweden) if he fails he can choose to either become incorporated again (once the "historical" coup fires) or seek out on his own, I was thinking of having three choices once Johan III becomes king of Sweden (if he didn't just take Stockholm that is, but followed the other path) 1. Reintegrate the duchy, finland is inherited by sweden. 2. Keep the duchy's administration separate (Finland is made a vassal of Sweden with a duplicate of John's Vasa line as regents, up to Johan Casimir when the next event fires) 3. Separate the duchy from Sweden. (war, stab hit, desertions, revolts etc. etc. etc. , still uses John's vasa line as dukes though)

Then once John's line dies out (in the late 1600's) depending on the choices made before there are three choices, revert to the crown, remain a vassal or full independence (in each of the independent options a new duke of Finland is chosen, awakening the "finnish" monarchs) should the "full independence" option be chosen at this stage then Finland loses Scandinavian culture, if Full independence was chosen the last time then the default choice is now "Keep our Independence"

How does this sound to you?

Rather unhistorical, at least as a whole.
Finland as an autonomous duchy is rather far-fetched, although there are some examples in France... But France had also historically problems with it's powerful and always not so cooperative vassal duchies, but I don't remember any such for Swedish duchies.

And of Johan and Erik. Ain't the historical option that Karl and Johan dethorne Erik? And the unhistorical option is execution of Johan, so that event would need some adjustment too. So Johan becomes king unless he dies. And if Johan becomes king of Sweden and duke of Finland, why would he want to separate Finland from Sweden?

And of the losing scandinavian? Why? The ugric people were peasants until 19th century and the ugric cultural awakening wasn't until late 19th century.

Also as the last thing, this would require Finland to become a "revolter" from 1500s, which is also very unhistorical imho (see first post).

But nice ideas though.

 

[Arilou]

Rather unhistorical, at least as a whole.
Finland as an autonomous duchy is rather far-fetched, although there are some examples in France... But France had also historically problems with it's powerful and always not so cooperative vassal duchies, but I don't remember any such for Swedish duchies.

And of Johan and Erik. Ain't the historical option that Karl and Johan dethorne Erik? And the unhistorical option is execution of Johan, so that event would need some adjustment too. So Johan becomes king unless he dies. And if Johan becomes king of Sweden and duke of Finland, why would he want to separate Finland from Sweden?

And of the losing scandinavian? Why? The ugric people were peasants until 19th century and the ugric cultural awakening wasn't until late 19th century.

Also as the last thing, this would require Finland to become a "revolter" from 1500s, which is also very unhistorical imho (see first post).

But nice ideas though.

Actually since i was planning on releasing Finland by event I don't think their revolt-date is needed.

Yes, it is ahistorical of course, but not all that unplausible, I'll adress your point one at a time:

RE: independent Duchies: These were major hassles for the swedish kings after Gustav Vasa's death, it's the reason for all those coups in the 16th century, had events gone differently Sweden could Could have fractured.

RE: Civil war: Well, I actually mistook this forum for the AGCEEP forum o but yes, I was going to change that event sequence as well (if I ever get things done, which is not likely)

RE: Separation: Mostly as a back up I'd say, keep Sweden as the kingdom and Finland as a personal duchy.

RE: Note that the loosing scandinavian culture would be only in the late 1600's, and it would basically mean the finns cutting all ties with Sweden, hence the culture loss. (there's a difference between turning against your overlord and being conquered by someone else and then freeing yourself)

 

[Khephren]

Actually since i was planning on releasing Finland by event I don't think their revolt-date is needed.

Can't release them before their revolt date, so you'll still have to edit it.

 

[Ges]

Okay here it goes:

I've been thinking to try to pull a more historical approach for 1550-1610 swedish history in AGCEEP mod.

Here is minimum events for more history presentation:

first change revolt.txt entry for finland as:

FIN = {
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1550 }
	expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
	minimum = { 265 342 273 263 264 }
	extra = { 260 261 262 266 275 1470 }
	capital = 342
	group = orthodox
	}

i'm not 100% sure yet that this is the best solution. maybe those extra provinces should be removed, after all newly formed finland get cores on those provinces. They could be removed via event later but as I said it must be thought through again. althought this kind of entry would make it more historical if someone decides to release finland later. as Russia did historically.

then the events. first for Duchy of Johan

# Duchy of Johan
event = {
	id = 291017
	random = no
	country = SWE
	name = "Testament of Gustav Vasa"
	desc = "..."
	style = 3
	date = { day = 27 month = june year = 1557 }
       	
	
	action_a ={ # duchies
		name = "Give boys some land"
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = independence  which = FIN }		
		command = { type = trigger which = 291504 } # finnish event
		command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 24 value = -2 }
		command = { type = provincetax   which = 253 value = -2 } 
		 
	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "No Point giving those duchies"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 291018 } #inherit fin	
	}
	
}

# Duchy of Johan
event = {
	id = 291504
	random = no
	country = FIN
	name = "Duchy of Johan"
	desc = "..."
	style = 2
       	
	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "OK"
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince   which = SWE value = 263 }	
		command = { type = secedeprovince   which = SWE value = 264 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince   which = SWE value = 265 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince   which = SWE value = 266 } 
		command = { type = secedeprovince   which = SWE value = 273 } 
	}
	
}

# Revisit the testament
event = {
	id = 291018
	random = no
	country = SWE
	name = "Testament of Gustav Vasa"
	desc = "..."
	style = 3
	date = { day = 1 month = june year = 1563 }
       	offset = 60
	
	action_a ={ # invade finland
		name = "Revisit the testament"
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = inherit   which = FIN }		
		command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 24 value = 2 }
		command = { type = provincetax   which = 253 value = 2 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 342 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 342 } 
	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "Be loyal to testament"
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = cash   value = 250 } 
	}
}

one problem remaining: do sweden lose bailiffs (and other possible buildings) this way? that really isn't that big deal after all it's just 5 provinces =)

then to civil war events. This one is harder because I may decide to completely redo this chain of events

#Uppsala Möte, Söderköping Riksdagen, Alborga
event = {
	id = 291016
	trigger = {		
		religion = protestant
		exists = POL
	}
	random = no
	country = SWE
	name = "Uppsala Möte, Söderköping Riksdagen & Alborga Riksdagen"
	desc = "..."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1593 }
       	offset = 100

	action_a ={ # Take hard line against catholism.
		name = "Take hard line against catholism and name Charles as stateholder."
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -50 }
		command = { type = independence  which = FIN }
		command = { type = trigger which = 291501 } # Finnish event
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 291503 } #polish event

	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "Accept Catholism & Sigismund as King."
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 50 }
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = 06305 }
		command = { type = alliance which = POL }
		command = { type = trigger which = 291503 } # Polish event
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 291021 } #duke charles invades finland
	}
	
}

# Finland stays loyal to Sigismund
event = {
	id = 291501
	random = no
	country = FIN
	name = "Finland is loyal to Poland"
	desc = "..."
	style = 3
	
	action_a ={ 
		name = "Be Loyal to King Sigismund"
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = breakvassal which = SWE } 
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = SWE value = -250 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 291502 } # polish event
		command = { type = revolt which = 263 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 263 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk   which = 263 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "We want King to sit in Stockholm. (End Game)"
		command = { type = trigger which = 291021 }
	}
}

#Sweden want to dethrone Sigismund#
event = {
	id = 291502
	random = no
	country = POL
	name = "Sweden want to dethrone Sigismund"
	desc = "Sweden want to dethrone Sigismund"
	style = 2
	
	action_a = {
		name = "No!"
		command = { type = relation which = FIN value = 50 }
		command = { type = alliance which = FIN }
		command = { type = vassal which = FIN }
		command = { type = dynastic which = FIN }
		command = { type = casusbelli   which = SWE value = 24 }
	}
}

#King Sigismunds coronation#
event = {
	id = 291503
	random = no
	country = POL
	name = "King Sigismunds coronation"
	desc = "King Sigismund is throned in Stockholm"
	style = 2
		
	action_a = {
		name = "Great!"
		command = { type = relation which = SWE value = 50 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 150 }
		command = { type = dynastic which = SWE }
		command = { type = alliance which = SWE }
		command = { type = vassal which = SWE }
	}
}

# Duke Charles invades Finland
event = {
	id = 291021
	random = no
	country = SWE
	name = "Duke Charles invades Finland"
	desc = "Duke Charles invades Finland"
	style = 2
       date = { day = 1 month = july year = 1599 }
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = october year = 1620 }
       offset = 150
	
	action_a ={ # Duke Charles
		name = "Let Duke Charles to invade Finland."
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = inherit   which = FIN }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -20 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 342 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 342 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 265 }
	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "Let Finland remain loyal to King Sigismund."
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 50 }
	}
}

As you see this is minimum event chain with just presentation of what historically happened. Not much ahistorical choices. I haven't even thought some possible alternative routes. also it lacks choices for finland to even try to stay independent

If someone decides to use these events you may want to lose sweden event 3229. You may decide to copy all events to right files (pol to AGCEEP_Specific_Poland.eue file and swe to ...sweden.eue) if you decide to make own file for finland add right line to events.txt. I'm not sure but I think that just copying these events in any event file is ebough for them to work. I've done some minor testing but since the whole sequence is still under major rethinking (I want to add new baltic presentation of the fall of livonian order. after all there Duchy of Johan was also included in all that)

please post any feedback.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Actually since i was planning on releasing Finland by event I don't think their revolt-date is needed.

Yes, it is ahistorical of course, but not all that unplausible, I'll adress your point one at a time:

RE: independent Duchies: These were major hassles for the swedish kings after Gustav Vasa's death, it's the reason for all those coups in the 16th century, had events gone differently Sweden could Could have fractured.

RE: Civil war: Well, I actually mistook this forum for the AGCEEP forum o but yes, I was going to change that event sequence as well (if I ever get things done, which is not likely)

RE: Separation: Mostly as a back up I'd say, keep Sweden as the kingdom and Finland as a personal duchy.

RE: Note that the loosing scandinavian culture would be only in the late 1600's, and it would basically mean the finns cutting all ties with Sweden, hence the culture loss. (there's a difference between turning against your overlord and being conquered by someone else and then freeing yourself)

Well, I'm not an expert on finnish history, I admit. Only thing that I can really say is wrong with your replying is that the finnish culture wasn't there. It would similiar to USA adopting the native indian culture after becoming independent and renouncing their anglosaxon culture, to cut ties with England. I really don't think any awakening of the finnish culture as reasonable before nationalism swept through Europe.