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LAF1994

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Countries should not be allowed to take provinces which are only adjacent to vassals or PU partners (i.e. vassal and PU partner provinces should not count as adjacent for coring purposes). The problem with this happening in-game is that it results in unrealistic border gore.
 
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FishieFan

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British india had alot of border gore due to conquests through the princely states.
The ai will eventually integrate vassals and PUs so Polish Yedishan isnt too bad
 
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LAF1994

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There is a lot of realbordergore in this era, especially in the HRE, usually the result of heritance
States in the HRE were at least nominally part of the same structure though. Personal union partners are formally distinct entities.
It would make more sense to give provinces to the PU partner or vassal in question rather than having weird discontinuities.
 
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LAF1994

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British india had alot of border gore due to conquests through the princely states.
The ai will eventually integrate vassals and PUs so Polish Yedishan isnt too bad
That's one of the main problems (the others being Austrian Wallachia and Danish Karelia). It's extremely unrealistic and silly.
 
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ValhallArchitect

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Countries should not be allowed to take provinces which are only adjacent to vassals or PU partners (i.e. vassal and PU partner provinces should not count as adjacent for coring purposes). The problem with this happening in-game is that it results in unrealistic border gore.
You are right. PU are pretty badly represented in game, as a type of vassalage. In reality, it was more like an alliance of nations (with their own parliament, laws and customs) sharing only a common monarch.

Thus, Lithuanian claims on crimea or Swedish claims on Karelia would, could and should never have fallen into the hands of Poland or Denmark. This would have simply been angering local nobility or powers for stealing their claims

Finally, it doesn’t make any sense gameplay-wise, since if the junior gains independence (hey there Sweden every game), then the senior partner finds itself cut from its provinces (thus unable to defend them, reduce unrest or fight rebels, unless he already has a garrisoned army there)

In fact, a very good example of the bad representation of PUs in game is that Lithuania never came to war with the Teutons in 1466 ; and likewise polish nobles often rebuked at paying costly wars to defend Lithuanian territories. This in it’s time led to the Union of Lublin, when the polish nobility asked this as a counterpart to involving into muscovite-Lithuanian wars
 
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zincpl

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a blanket ban would be a bit much imo - it would make vassals/pus much less attractive. Some sort of disincentive would be reasonable though e.g. something like taking land you don't have claims on for yourself in your vassal's war could have an unjustified demands or AE penalty increase (e.g. 25%) since it's kind of two degrees of unjustification. Basically border gore is possible but at some cost.
 
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a blanket ban would be a bit much imo - it would make vassals/pus much less attractive. Some sort of disincentive would be reasonable though e.g. something like taking land you don't have claims on for yourself in your vassal's war could have an unjustified demands or AE penalty increase (e.g. 25%) since it's kind of two degrees of unjustification. Basically border gore is possible but at some cost.
I don’t see why, actually the point of PU and vassals is still to integrate them after a while (if you are good enough to keep them 10 or 50 years).
So everything considered, it would not end the finality of expanding the empire, just correct the bordergore and ahistorical behavior.

That being said your solution could also work… there is just one thing missing though : even with that, junior partners still hand over the occupied territories to their overlord, which, once again doesn’t make any sense.
If they took the time to create claims, or to mark them as “strategic territory”, why would they hand it over to a foreign power (although in union, it still remains a different country)
 
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zincpl

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I remember playing Poland a while back (before the latest mission trees) and it was very frustrating that lithuania wouldn't claim anything so acted as a giant blocker to expansion. Likewise if you have religious ideas, your vassals can block off your CB if your not careful - these kinds of situations are in practice similar to not being able to take land for yourself. I have a faint memory also of the devs needing to make vassal play more attractive a few years back so I have that in mind (I could be misremembering though)
 

FishieFan

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I remember playing Poland a while back (before the latest mission trees) and it was very frustrating that lithuania wouldn't claim anything so acted as a giant blocker to expansion.
Did you mark provinces as regions of interest?
Likewise if you have religious ideas, your vassals can block off your CB if your not careful - these kinds of situations are in practice similar to not being able to take land for yourself. I have a faint memory also of the devs needing to make vassal play more attractive a few years back so I have that in mind (I could be misremembering though)
Leviathan added a few whilst india rework in dharma gave some gov reforms that buffed vassals
 

zincpl

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yeah that was even with provinces of interest marked, I think it may have been related to ruler traits but they just wouldn't make claims. Anyhow my point is that your PU blocking your expansion is a pretty frustrating experience - I defo agree with you on trying to limit/restrain the bordergore via vassals/PUs though.
 
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yeah that was even with provinces of interest marked, I think it may have been related to ruler traits but they just wouldn't make claims. Anyhow my point is that your PU blocking your expansion is a pretty frustrating experience - I defo agree with you on trying to limit/restrain the bordergore via vassals/PUs though.
Indeed, as you point out, the issue does not lay with the senior not being able to expand, but with vassals or PUs not doing any actual diplomacy (and claims, and wars)… which according to aforementioned historical examples, they should totally be doing.
a junior should not be a sitting dog, it should be an active player in the concert or nations just like the senior, since it’s in a union, and not under vassalage