Conquest of the holy places

[Orm]

Speaking of Rome, this comes to another question. What would any sort of reaction/reprucussion be should Rome be taken by a Protestant/Reformist nation, if any?

I guess Spain, France and/or Austria would try to re-conquer it, and succeed too... it would be too difficult for any of the historical protestant nations to hold on to Rome, for geographical reasons. The UK would possibly have been able to do it in the later part of the 18th century, but by then it's hard to imagine why they'd want to.

 

[Alex Gariepy]

I guess Spain, France and/or Austria would try to re-conquer it, and succeed too... it would be too difficult for any of the historical protestant nations to hold on to Rome, for geographical reasons. The UK would possibly have been able to do it in the later part of the 18th century, but by then it's hard to imagine why they'd want to.

Yes, but like the whole Jerusalem scenario before, I am referring to the 'what-if' scenario of such a case. Just because it was too difficult in history, doesn't mean that a player (or kooky AI being kooky AI) couldn't do it in the confines of this game. So, I ask, would there be some odd event/reaction/whatever should such an event take place? I mean, aside from the obvious CB.

 

[crusaderknight]

I don't think so. The whole crusading idea was pretty much dead by 1453...

Not really. After Christopher Columbus (I hope I don't need to show what years he was around) did his exploring in the west, he actulally funded a crusade in the early 1500s. So crusading was not "dead" but rather dying. But if someone could have succeeded in retaking Jerusalem, I'm sure the fervor would return. The disillusionment occured because no one had retaken Jerusalem by force since 1099! The only other time it was ever taken was during I think it was the 6th crusade and then that was by a peace treaty and it was lost within a few years after. But as I said, if Jerusalem could have been reconquered, the fervor would probably have come back.

- Crusaderknight

 

[Tunch Khan]

Plans of capturing Rome and Vienna by OE were pretty much in parrallel lines with the Crusades and should have their own events. Mehmed II had the obsession of creating "The Empire" that would unite three religions (Islam, Catholic and Orthodox Christianity) living in harmony under his rule.

He had started the conquest of Italy from the south but his unexpexted death caused unstability and the plan was aborted.

 

[joriandrake]

Plans of capturing Rome and Vienna by OE were pretty much in parrallel lines with the Crusades and should have their own events. Mehmed II had the obsession of creating "The Empire" that would unite three religions (Islam, Catholic and Orthodox Christianity) living in harmony under his rule.

He had started the conquest of Italy from the south but his unexpexted death caused unstability and the plan was aborted.

Yes, and if muslims can do that in the timeframe, why not the catholics?

 

[unmerged(18849)]

Plans of capturing Rome and Vienna by OE were pretty much in parrallel lines with the Crusades and should have their own events. Mehmed II had the obsession of creating "The Empire" that would unite three religions (Islam, Catholic and Orthodox Christianity) living in harmony under his rule.

He had started the conquest of Italy from the south but his unexpexted death caused unstability and the plan was aborted.

It is highly ahistorical to claim that Mehmed the II wanted to unite three religions and let them live in harmony under his rule.

If you look at the way he treated the conquered people you will see that it would rather be necessary to build in events much like the moorish-events of Spain (but just even harsher).

He did indeed wish to reunite the Roman Empire under his rule as he after the conquest of Constantinople saw himself as its rightful heire.

But his idea of "living in harmony" was among other things:
- Got the throne through murdering 3 year old brother (the laws of the OE allowed these murders among conteders to the throne)
- Made massacres on the civilian population of Constantinople. The troops of OE stormed the Hagia Sophia where people had sought refuge, even babys were not spared getting their heads cut off. The killing lasted all night and only ended when the greatwasir said that the soldiers should rest now, and that the Hagia Sophia now belonged to Allah. All over the city there was raping of nuns, massive killings and people being cought to be sold into slavery.

The same picture repeated over and over again in the wars of conquest by the OE. In Hungary alone under Sulayman the Magnificent millions of people were taken away and sold as slaves on the slavemarkets in Istanbul, Damascus, Cairo or Baghdad.

But back to the game, and the things that could be done to make OE AI more realistic and provide players of OE with realistic options.
To keep it somewhat realistic there should be the possibility of saying for example:
"My lord we have captured Constantinople. Should we force them to the right faith?

Yes: Event Islamification of Constantinople -> Religion changes to sunni, christians sold into slavery manpower in Constantinople falls, manpower in Ottoman core areas rise.
No: Everything stays like it is

However in later times there were also more tollerant times and for example the expelled jews from Spain found refuge in Istanbul.

The period was not a very nice time to live
But fun to play

 

[joriandrake]

In Hungary alone under Sulayman the Magnificent millions of people were taken away and sold as slaves on the slavemarkets in Istanbul, Damascus, Cairo or Baghdad.

True all of you say, and what you say about Hungary is also true...only one thing angers me: Turks say today that we were 'happy' and 'friendly' under their rule

 

[Emre Yigit]

True all of you say, and what you say about Hungary is also true...only one thing angers me: Turks say today that we were 'happy' and 'friendly' under their rule

Well, if "millions" were taken away from Renaissance Hungary, I guess the three people left would have been happy to have been left behind. Be thankful for small favours. Really, some people have no appreciation of Ottoman statecraft.

 

[Emre Yigit]

It is highly ahistorical to claim that Mehmed the II wanted to unite three religions and let them live in harmony under his rule.

I agree. Mehmet II was a tyrant with a chip the size of Alexander on his shoulder.

To keep it somewhat realistic there should be the possibility of saying for example:
"My lord we have captured Constantinople. Should we force them to the right faith?

Yes: Event Islamification of Constantinople -> Religion changes to sunni, christians sold into slavery manpower in Constantinople falls, manpower in Ottoman core areas rise.
No: Everything stays like it is

Stylistically I like very much. I would prefer an impact on tax level, however.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

True all of you say, and what you say about Hungary is also true...only one thing angers me: Turks say today that we were 'happy' and 'friendly' under their rule

To be fair, it's not like the Hungarian nobles were excited about being ruled by the Habsburgs, either.

 

[unmerged(18849)]

Well, if "millions" were taken away from Renaissance Hungary, I guess the three people left would have been happy to have been left behind. Be thankful for small favours. Really, some people have no appreciation of Ottoman statecraft.

Heard it in a history documentary on tv. I have now looked it up the number on the net.

"One of the tragic results of the Turkish wars was the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Magyars of all by the Turks as slaves. Estimates indicate that about 2 million Hungarians were subjected to the horrors of slavery. The families were, of course, separated and the children lost their national identity. Many boys were trained in special institution become Janissaries, the Turks’ elite soldiers. They lost all recollection of their birth, name, religion or family."
Source: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/timeless/chapter30.htm
and more here http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/timeless/chapter13.htm

A few other places the number of 3 million is mentioned. But I'd rather stick to the conservative estimate.

 

[joriandrake]

To be fair, it's not like the Hungarian nobles were excited about being ruled by the Habsburgs, either.

True

 

[joriandrake]

Heard it in a history documentary on tv. I have now looked it up the number on the net.

"One of the tragic results of the Turkish wars was the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Magyars of all by the Turks as slaves. Estimates indicate that about 2 million Hungarians were subjected to the horrors of slavery. The families were, of course, separated and the children lost their national identity. Many boys were trained in special institution become Janissaries, the Turks’ elite soldiers. They lost all recollection of their birth, name, religion or family."
Source: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/timeless/chapter30.htm
and more here http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/timeless/chapter13.htm

A few other places the number of 3 million is mentioned. But I'd rather stick to the conservative estimate.

There were minimum 3 millions.
And thos b*****ds used those man agains their own real Ancestors nation.

 

[unmerged(18849)]

True

But then again there is already as far as I remember somewhat higher revolt risk in the hungarian provinces when playing as Austria. So that is taken care of already in the game.

 

[joriandrake]

But then again there is already as far as I remember somewhat higher revolt risk in the hungarian provinces when playing as Austria. So that is taken care of already in the game.

...not really:
of course this is not the timeframe of EU, but in Vicky era, '48-'49 there was a liberating movement in Hungary and we nearly controlled anything. Austria had help from Russia to defeat us, and this events are not even modelled a bit in Victoria.
Also, that was not normal to 'inherit' Hungary as Austria...

 

[Russophile]

Don't forget too people that the orthodox and catholic nations would have a reaction depending on which faith took over Constantinople or Jerusalem. Consider the Patriarch in Constantinople becoming independent of the OE again. What a boost for an Orthodox country. Or the Pope kicking out all of the orthodox priests/bishops from the holy sites in Jerusalem if Catholic nations took over the holy land again. There would be a definite reaction (negative or positive) depending on which faction took them over. This issue would have to be explored too.

 

[Emre Yigit]

There were minimum 3 millions.
And thos b*****ds used those man agains their own real Ancestors nation.

Oh, well, I guess we'll never agree. The concept of slavery in the OE is a trifle different to, say, that of the African trade. In any event, I had thought the devshirme system was not applied in Hungary, but I am apparently mistaken. Indeed, it appears that one of the Hungarian slaves was Kemankes Kara Mustafa Pasha, who became Grand Vizier between 1638 and 1644, and is known to the EU2 community via event 3386.

But I digress. Interesting, though.

 

[Yasko]

If you look at the way he treated the conquered people you will see that it would rather be necessary to build in events much like the moorish-events of Spain (but just even harsher).

I dont think so. Plundering cities was a common thing back than(and it did happen with Ottos too), now if he was so harsh like the "moorish in Spain" events, there would not be any christians left in Balkans south of Denube or Anatolia during his reign. I also remember that he was invited to conquere Morea(or a part of it) by its nobles since they prefered him as a ruler over the current one, so he cant be that devilish after all... I would also suggest that you read the letter he wrote to the orthodox Patriarch right after the conquest of Constantinople where he granted the orthodox religious freedom, its still preserved by the Orthodox Patriarch in Istanbul today...Once again, yes with todays measures, he was tyrant, evil etc...but hardly if you compare him to others in his time...

But his idea of "living in harmony" was among other things:

Constnantinople was a city with 30k maybe 40k population when he conquered the city. And yes it was plundered and pops enslaved. But you forget to mention that he later re-populated the city making it much more bigger than how it was right before the conquest. He mainly forced greeks, turks and armenians to move into the city(and they did live in harmony).

Yes: Event Islamification of Constantinople -> Religion changes to sunni, christians sold into slavery manpower in Constantinople falls, manpower in Ottoman core areas rise.

Actually i would suggest the opposite, manpower in Constantinople rises after a while, since Mehmed II re-populated the city and made it bigger than how it was 1453...

 

[Emre Yigit]

Getting back on topic, maybe whoever owns Mecca and Medina or Jerusalem should see a small monthly rise in relations with co-religionists. The prestige of, say, the French monarchy would be enhanced by its holding the Holy Land against the infidels. (Though there is a slight problem: The King of Spain, also titular King of Jerusalem, might have been a bit peeved. MAybe we could discount this for the game?)