Conquest of Paradise Tax Increases Resulting in

[Roflpotamus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZHyVdVrcUI

It appears that colonies will rebel if they are overtaxed. As far as I'm aware the US was hardly taxed at all yet a sense of nationalism was developing regardless.

I cannot speak for the other colonies and their rebellions. Did overtaxation lead to their rebellion or did that play little to no role as in the case of the US?


I realize that the "tea tax" was considered the spark for the US Revolutionary War but considering how little the US was getting taxed it doesn't really follow.


It would be great if most colonies tended towards rebellions and ended in independence as historically happened.

 

[Xara]

it wasn't about "overtaxation" it was about any taxation being implemented without representation

 

[Gamerofthegame]

Huge part of the American revolution, which was a major spark for other colonial revolutions, was the whole "Taxation with representation" thing. You might have heard of it. So yeah, it still works.

Taxation is just a part of the desire for independence, though.

 

[tyler717]

although the american independence wasnt down to over taxation , being overtaxed has caused unrest and thus revolts through out history- hence the Barons revolts in england between 1215-1267

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

Regardless of whether the American Revolution was more due to the "taxation" part or the "without representation" part, it sounds like a decent enough idea as a game mechanic: it's simple, and it could produce interesting tradeoffs. I mean, we don't even have a Parliament/other detailed government system in the game right now so there would be no way to simulate the representation part.

 

[El Jojo]

although the american independence wasnt down to over taxation , being overtaxed has caused unrest and thus revolts through out history- hence the Barons revolts in england between 1215-1267

I'm more skeptical about a one-size-fits-all approach to colonies, making the US path the only path while Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese colonies did not face the same problems and revolutions. Even among british colonies independance desire was not that strong. Napoleonic wars were much more disruptive to Spain and Portugal than colonial taxation.

 

[TheBloke]

Having just watched the video, the main thing that strikes me as suprising is that colonies pay a mere 5% of Tax. I did hear that right?

Johan said that they start by paying 5% of all income - Tax, Tariff, Trade. Then you can increase Tariff which is a manageable mechanic. But doesn't seem like you can increase the Tax income.

I suppose it's meant to be balanced by the Tariff income, which I anticipate being much more lucrative than Tariffs in 1.3, where they are at -80% of Production. I'm expecting Colonial Tariffs to be exactly like Production, 100%, on the basis that they're not overseas for the colony. So when you're getting 20% of Tariffs, that will be similar to the amount of Tariff you get now, but then you'll be able to go much higher as well.

So perhaps this all balances out. Nonetheless, 5% sounds awfully small - indeed, so small that I wonder why they give anything at all? Unless there's some way of increasing that 5% as well, something we've not yet been shown.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

Having just watched the video, the main thing that strikes me as suprising is that colonies pay a mere 5% of Tax. I did hear that right?

Johan said that they start by paying 5% of all income - Tax, Tariff, Trade. Then you can increase Tariff which is a manageable mechanic. But doesn't seem like you can increase the Tax income.

I suppose it's meant to be balanced by the Tariff income, which I anticipate being much more lucrative than Tariffs in 1.3, where they are at -80% of Production. I'm expecting Colonial Tariffs to be exactly like Production, 100%, on the basis that they're not overseas for the colony. So when you're getting 20% of Tariffs, that will be similar to the amount of Tariff you get now, but then you'll be able to go much higher as well.

So perhaps this all balances out. Nonetheless, 5% sounds awfully small - indeed, so small that I wonder why they give anything at all? Unless there's some way of increasing that 5% as well, something we've not yet been shown.

Right now you get tax with a -90% additive modifier, production plus base tax with a -80% multiplicative modifier, and normal trade income, with the middle term being called "tariffs". My interpretation is that "tariffs" is being changed to be an umbrella term for all colonial income, and that in the new system, you get income equal to 5% of the colonial nation's entire income. Everything: tax, production, trade, and probably also gold, etc. Then you can increase that 5% in ticks of 5% in the colonial screen at the cost of increased Liberty Desire. Extrapolating, it seems that LD is equal to base tariff% + 25. (Modifiers appear to be included in the display, so each tick increases the net tariff percentage by 7% in the video because Spain has a +40% modifier to overseas income.) If tariffs are the only thing affecting LD, this means the maximum base tariff rate without risking a revolution is 20% or 25%, whereas running the base tariff rate up to 75% will always cause a revolution.

Spotted a tooltip: "A subject nation that has a greater army than its overlord will feel more inclined towards rebellion."

 

[victimizer]

yes, I think colonies should grow apart in culture as they grow in strenght. It should be a more or less unavoidable occurance and you'd have to fight the occasional war to keep your colonies in check.

 

[TheBloke]

Right now you get tax with a -90% additive modifier, production plus base tax with a -80% multiplicative modifier, and normal trade income, with the middle term being called "tariffs". My interpretation is that "tariffs" is being changed to be an umbrella term for all colonial income, and that in the new system, you get income equal to 5% of the colonial nation's entire income. Everything: tax, production, trade, and probably also gold, etc. Then you can increase that 5% in ticks of 5% in the colonial screen at the cost of increased Liberty Desire. Extrapolating, it seems that LD is equal to base tariff% + 25. (Modifiers appear to be included in the display, so each tick increases the net tariff percentage by 7% in the video because Spain has a +40% modifier to overseas income.) If tariffs are the only thing affecting LD, this means the maximum base tariff rate without risking a revolution is 20% or 25%, whereas running the base tariff rate up to 75% will always cause a revolution.

Spotted a tooltip: "A subject nation that has a greater army than its overlord will feel more inclined towards rebellion."

Hmm good thoughts. However does this correlate with the new vassal screen that shows tariff and tax as separate columns, with the management button only on tariff? I'm no longer at computer so can't see it, but I did think thatit appeared llike tax income and tariff were separate with only the latter manageable. Then normal vassals would just give tax at the usual unmanaged rate of 50.

Not sure. Your idea certainly makes sense.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

Hmm good thoughts. However does this correlate with the new vassal screen that shows tariff and tax as separate columns, with the management button only on tariff? I'm no longer at computer so can't see it, but I did think thatit appeared llike tax income and tariff were separate with only the latter manageable. Then normal vassals would just give tax at the usual unmanaged rate of 50.

Not sure. Your idea certainly makes sense.

The screen has a base tax column, but that's more for overview purposes. The management button is indeed only on tariffs because that's what you're managing, you can't increase or decrease their base tax with a button after all . But tariffs are the percentage of all their income you take away from them, not the seperate type of province income we now know as tariffs.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

no it was definitely taxes that ticked them off

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

I think the ducat column is the net tariff income, not the base tax---you can see it increase when the tariff efficiency is increased.

 

[Korashy]

Active armies in the colony territories should decrease liberty desire IMHO. If i have 40k troops parked in a colonial nation with an army of 15k they should me much less likely to rebel than if i had no troops there.

 

[ErikHeinrichs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZHyVdVrcUI

It appears that colonies will rebel if they are overtaxed. As far as I'm aware the US was hardly taxed at all yet a sense of nationalism was developing regardless.

I cannot speak for the other colonies and their rebellions. Did overtaxation lead to their rebellion or did that play little to no role as in the case of the US?


I realize that the "tea tax" was considered the spark for the US Revolutionary War but considering how little the US was getting taxed it doesn't really follow.


It would be great if most colonies tended towards rebellions and ended in independence as historically happened.

What nationalism? You do realize that they (the so called rebels) viewed themself as british? Like Paul Revere's famous words "the regulars are coming" has for some reason many times turned into "the british are coming".

 

[Stategem161803]

The us declared independence simply because we wanted independence. It's the same as if you play as a vassal in eu4. You may not particularly dislike your liege, but you just want free of him anyways.

"Taxation without representation" was a convenient excuse to escalate an already frictional situation and get the people behind continental leadership.

This is important to note because I believe in COP vassals/colonials will eventually revolt no matter how nicely you treat them simply because they want independence (provided they can win of course). If I'm wrong, it should be this way.

 

[Knight_of_Ni]

I'd say the reason that the colonies rebelled was more due to the fact that the British, after seeing colonial mismanagement early in the 7 Years War, decided to directly control and govern them. Obviously many among the elite and leaders of the colonies saw this new British show of force as a threat to their interests. Before then they had been content to let the colonies do pretty much as they wished. Hence the whole "benign neglect" decision/events.

 

[niallmcfc]

This is important to note because I believe in COP vassals/colonials will eventually revolt no matter how nicely you treat them simply because they want independence (provided they can win of course). If I'm wrong, it should be this way.

It's been mentioned that as time goes on Liberty Desire increases regardless of what you do, so I imagine there will be a date where having 50% liberty desire (the necessary to revolt) will be unavoidable.

I wonder if there'll be events that increase it as well. It wouldn't surprise me, but there should also then be decreasing events. Also, it's been stated that liberty desire resets/ lowers when you beat them in an independence war- any word on what this actually means? Will tariffs be lowered automatically, will the base liberty desire go down?

 

[beckermt]

Depending on how the colonial freedom stuff works (how inevitable and how fast), it may turn out that the best strategy is to free them, then annex, and release as vassal. Or free, diploannex...

I wonder how they'll deal with that stuff. Also, I hope they address the silliness of "Distant Overseas" for countries like Malaya, where apparently Australia is Distant Overseas, because it's impossible to get a land connection there.

 

[Tempestra]

The idea that the American Revolution was primarily about taxes being too high is basically a backward projection by contemporary neoliberal tax-cutters who want to portray everybody who wants the US government to have a substantial tax base as betraying the ideals of George Washington, or something.