Conquest of Paradise Questions

[Sebor13]

I have two questions about the upcoming DLC.

1) Do the colonial nations become their own pseudo-vassals automatically or does the player have some sort of power in the choice?

2) Are the colonial region boundaries still strictly enforced or did they come up with an alternative solution (such as having it become the colonial nation of whichever region has the majority of colonies)?

 

[gnome109]

From what I understand colonial nations form automatically when you control enough provinces in a colonial region.

 

[TheBloke]

Automatically once you have five colonies in a given colonial region (or rather, once five have turned into cities, I believe).

The colonial regions are static; if you have four colonies in region 1 and two colonies in region 2, you will have no Colonial Nation break-away yet because you didn't reach 5 in any one Region. Similarly, the 13 Colonies Colonial Nation will form only from the correct Region, when a nation has 5 colonies in that Region. But once it does form, it can colonise outside that region.

 

[beckermt]

Maaan, I am so excited for this.

 

[herrhals]

It would be fun to tag switch to a newly developed colonial nation, and role-play the hell out of it.. or just declare independence in 1508

 

[Sebor13]

From what I understand colonial nations form automatically when you control enough provinces in a colonial region.

Automatically once you have five colonies in a given colonial region (or rather, once five have turned into cities, I believe).

The colonial regions are static; if you have four colonies in region 1 and two colonies in region 2, you will have no Colonial Nation break-away yet because you didn't reach 5 in any one Region. Similarly, the 13 Colonies Colonial Nation will form only from the correct Region, when a nation has 5 colonies in that Region. But once it does form, it can colonise outside that region.

Thanks.

I still feel like that's an incredibly bad design choice.

It's weird to think that if you have four colonies in New England and two just over the border in Canada, nothing happens. But get one province in South Carolina and all of a sudden you have a colonial nation.

It's just kind of ridiculous. I understand their need to make colonial regions (so that Peru doesn't end up in Canada or anything) but it should be continuous provinces that form a colonial nation, not static, pre-determined regions.

 

[TheBloke]

Thanks.

I still feel like that's an incredibly bad design choice.

It's weird to think that if you have four colonies in New England and two just over the border in Canada, nothing happens. But get one province in South Carolina and all of a sudden you have a colonial nation.

It's just kind of ridiculous. I understand their need to make colonial regions (so that Peru doesn't end up in Canada or anything) but it should be continuous provinces that form a colonial nation, not static, pre-determined regions.

I'm sure they've done it to simplify implementation. Having dynamically generated regions is rather a different task, significantly more complicated. If you get a continuous string of provinces from Mahattan to Canada, how do you divide that into two nations? If you started simultaneously from the 13 Colonies region and the Canada region, adding one colony per region alternately, how do you then decide which part is Canada and which part 13 Colonies, except by statically defined regions?

You're saying that if I colonise four colonies in 13 Colonies, then a fifth, bordering in Canada, that could form as a single 13 Colonies just with a slightly different geographic shape to the real one? So then if I add another colony in Canada, does it extend 13 Colonies, or is it set aside for a new Canadian region? Well if it borders, it continues as 13 Colonies right? So then I keep adding bordering colonies, and now I do indeed have one nation that goes from Manhattan to Canada. And if I can do that, then the same could apply to get Peru extended up to Canada.

Or what happens if I add a new colony in Canada that's one-away from 13 Colonies? Well that's set aside for Canada clearly. But then I fill the gap, so I again have a continuous run from 13 Colonies, now to two new colonies; do both now join 13 Colonies? They'd have to, as the one immediately bordering it must do so by the previous rules, and as soon as it does, the other one borders it too! There's a good chance I won't ever be able to get Canada at that rate!

I'm not saying that all of that could not be worked out somehow, in a more sophisticated system than they have gone for. But it would be significantly more work - and for every person like you who might complain that it's too inflexible, they would be another who, in a more dynamic system, would complain that "This is stupidly ahistoric, why the hell is 13 Colonies in Quebec??"

My personal complaint/worry with the system is not the regions, but rather the automatic break-away, and the removal of any incentive to keep colonies under direct control, i.e. by building only 4 colonies in each region so they don't break-away. Seems to me it would have been more interesting if you could keep direct control of colonies and choose when to let them breakaway. Non-broken-away colonies would provide some worthwhile income, plus of course the benefits of you having complete control. Forming the Colonial Nation would lose you that direct control, but earn you more income in the long run. If you waited too long until you let it form, you would get increasing penalties/decreasing income, until eventually it broke away automatically and resulted in a Colonial Nation with huge immediate Liberty Desire.

That would give the user the benefit of a new strategic decision to make, as well as the opportunity to mix and match the old mechanics and the new within the Americas.

My main concern, which may be unfounded, is the loss of the direct control mechanics such as the ability to build buildings and thus work on improving the value of colonial provinces. But I'm still hopeful that the new nations will offer enough strategic opportunities overall, and enough compensating new features, to make that a non-issue.

 

[Sebor13]

I'm sure they've done it to simplify implementation. Having dynamically generated regions is rather a different task, significantly more complicated. If you get a continuous string of provinces from Mahattan to Canada, how do you divide that into two nations? If you started simultaneously from the 13 Colonies region and the Canada region, adding one colony per region alternately, how do you then decide which part is Canada and which part 13 Colonies, except by statically defined regions?

You're saying that if I colonise four colonies in 13 Colonies, then a fifth, bordering in Canada, that could form as a single 13 Colonies just with a slightly different geographic shape to the real one? So then if I add another colony in Canada, does it extend 13 Colonies, or is it set aside for a new Canadian region? Well if it borders, it continues as 13 Colonies right? So then I keep adding bordering colonies, and now I do indeed have one nation that goes from Manhattan to Canada. And if I can do that, then the same could apply to get Peru extended up to Canada.

Or what happens if I add a new colony in Canada that's one-away from 13 Colonies? Well that's set aside for Canada clearly. But then I fill the gap, so I again have a continuous run from 13 Colonies, now to two new colonies; do both now join 13 Colonies? They'd have to, as the one immediately bordering it must do so by the previous rules, and as soon as it does, the other one borders it too! There's a good chance I won't ever be able to get Canada at that rate!

I'm not saying that all of that could not be worked out somehow, in a more sophisticated system than they have gone for. But it would be significantly more work - and for every person like you who might complain that it's too inflexible, they would be another who, in a more dynamic system, would complain that "This is stupidly ahistoric, why the hell is 13 Colonies in Quebec??"

My personal complaint/worry with the system is not the regions, but rather the automatic break-away, and the removal of any incentive to keep colonies under direct control, i.e. by building only 4 colonies in each region so they don't break-away. Seems to me it would have been more interesting if you could keep direct control of colonies and choose when to let them breakaway. Non-broken-away colonies would provide some worthwhile income, plus of course the benefits of you having complete control. Forming the Colonial Nation would lose you that direct control, but earn you more income in the long run. If you waited too long until you let it form, you would get increasing penalties/decreasing income, until eventually it broke away automatically and resulted in a Colonial Nation with huge immediate Liberty Desire.

That would give the user the benefit of a new strategic decision to make, as well as the opportunity to mix and match the old mechanics and the new within the Americas.

My main concern, which may be unfounded, is the loss of the direct control mechanics such as the ability to build buildings and thus work on improving the value of colonial provinces. But I'm still hopeful that the new nations will offer enough strategic opportunities overall, and enough compensating new features, to make that a non-issue.

I'm pretty sure they already said that anything bordering a colonial state will be put into it and that they will be able to expand beyond their region.

I'm just annoyed that they need to be within their region to actually spawn a colonial state. It's not dynamic. It's an extra few lines of code saying that this nation will spawn if its mostly in one region while bordering colonies in another.

 

[pesgores]

What if I have two clusters of 4 colonial provinces each, separated by only an unsettled province, and colonise that single province? Do they all form the colonial nation together?

 

[TheBloke]

I'm pretty sure they already said that anything bordering a colonial state will be put into it and that they will be able to expand beyond their region.

They said Colonial State will itself be able to colonise beyond its own region.

Colonies which the Overlord creates will add to Colonial Nations only within the defined region. If you have 13 Colonies formed as a Colonial Nation, and you, the Overlord, add another colony that borders it but is in the Canadian region, that is colony #1 of a future Canadian Colonial Nation, it won't join the 13 Colonies Colonial Nation.

EDIT: here's the confirmation:

Whenever you get 5 or more province in one colonial region, a new one will form. But an existing one can grow on its own by expanding into other regions through conquest and the use of colonists.

And one more:

Since the regions determine what names to be used and what potential countries they can turn into later we need to stick to predetermined regions. And you have a special map mode for it so there's no reason to "happen to colonize" in the wrong place. However once a colony is formed, that colony can in itself expand beyond the colonial region border.

So yes the Colonial Nation can itself expand outside - but the formation of Colonial Nations is strictly per region, when there are five colonies in that region. Oh, and he said later also that they will "prefer expanding within their own region" and there will be "some rules to make expanding outside that region somewhat limited."

(Re the breakaway number - in today's video Johan said "3, 4 or 5" so maybe five isn't set in stone..)

I'm just annoyed that they need to be within their region to actually spawn a colonial state. It's not dynamic. It's an extra few lines of code saying that this nation will spawn if its mostly in one region while bordering colonies in another.

It's more than that, for the reasons I listed.

If you have three colonies in 13 Colonies and two in Canada, you want that to form 13 Colonies?

OK what about if I built four colonies on the border inside 13 Colonies, and four on the border inside Canada. Then I put a colony in the middle, so placed as to connect up those two blocks of four colonies into a single block of 9 colonies. Let's say that middle province fell inside the Canadian border, so that now there's five Canadian, four 13 Colonies. That should form a nine province Canadian nation stretching half-way into 13 Colonies? Whereas if I did the same 9 province set, but offset by one such that the ninth made five inside 13 Colonies, it would be a 13 Colonies nation?

Let's say it was the Canadian nation that formed - now I add more colonies in Canada and it auto-adds to the nation, but I add more colonies to 13 Colonies it obviously can't, because they have to be the first colonies of a later 13 Colonies Nation. Except four provinces are already gone from 13 Colonies, so the available space is much less, and it looks weird that I've got a Canadian Massachusetts but Connecticut is reserved for a later, smaller, 13 Colonies.

The above might work from a technical standpoint - as I said, you can find rules that fit a cross-region structure. It's more than a few lines of code, but yes you could do it. But what have you gained? A few cross-region Nations with lots of weird edge cases where a Nation half exists in one region but new colonies in that region need to form another nation. And you'll have the Historicals up in arms, as I said, for Colonial Nations that look completely ahistoric.

So far as I can see the advertised implementation gives a reasonably good result without too much work and risk of bugs and risk of complaints. What you propose does not seem to meet that criteria, creating more weird situations than it creates better results.

 

[TheBloke]

What if I have two clusters of 4 colonial provinces each, separated by only an unsettled province, and colonise that single province? Do they all form the colonial nation together?

Are you asking about the CoP mechanic or what Sebor13 wants the mechanic to be ?

If the former, then no - one, five province nation forms, from whichever region that central single province was in. The other region still has four colonies with no Colonial Nation, until a fifth province is added in that region.

 

[Ruanek]

Another question - do colonial nations take up a diplomatic slot from their overlord?

 

[TheBloke]

Another question - do colonial nations take up a diplomatic slot from their overlord?

No.

 

[krol939]

Another question - do colonial nations take up a diplomatic slot from their overlord?

That would be horrible design, which would cripple diplomacy for Colony Nations, so probably not.

 

[Sebor13]

They said Colonial State will itself be able to colonise beyond its own region.

Colonies which the Overlord creates will add to Colonial Nations only within the defined region. If you have 13 Colonies formed as a Colonial Nation, and you, the Overlord, add another colony that borders it but is in the Canadian region, that is colony #1 of a future Canadian Colonial Nation, it won't join the 13 Colonies Colonial Nation.

EDIT: here's the confirmation:



And one more:



So yes the Colonial Nation can itself expand outside - but the formation of Colonial Nations is strictly per region, when there are five colonies in that region. Oh, and he said later also that they will "prefer expanding within their own region" and there will be "some rules to make expanding outside that region somewhat limited."

(Re the breakaway number - in today's video Johan said "3, 4 or 5" so maybe five isn't set in stone..)



It's more than that, for the reasons I listed.

If you have three colonies in 13 Colonies and two in Canada, you want that to form 13 Colonies?

OK what about if I built four colonies on the border inside 13 Colonies, and four on the border inside Canada. Then I put a colony in the middle, so placed as to connect up those two blocks of four colonies into a single block of 9 colonies. Let's say that middle province fell inside the Canadian border, so that now there's five Canadian, four 13 Colonies. That should form a nine province Canadian nation stretching half-way into 13 Colonies? Whereas if I did the same 9 province set, but offset by one such that the ninth made five inside 13 Colonies, it would be a 13 Colonies nation?

Let's say it was the Canadian nation that formed - now I add more colonies in Canada and it auto-adds to the nation, but I add more colonies to 13 Colonies it obviously can't, because they have to be the first colonies of a later 13 Colonies Nation. Except four provinces are already gone from 13 Colonies, so the available space is much less, and it looks weird that I've got a Canadian Massachusetts but Connecticut is reserved for a later, smaller, 13 Colonies.

The above might work from a technical standpoint - as I said, you can find rules that fit a cross-region structure. It's more than a few lines of code, but yes you could do it. But what have you gained? A few cross-region Nations with lots of weird edge cases where a Nation half exists in one region but new colonies in that region need to form another nation. And you'll have the Historicals up in arms, as I said, for Colonial Nations that look completely ahistoric.

So far as I can see the advertised implementation gives a reasonably good result without too much work and risk of bugs and risk of complaints. What you propose does not seem to meet that criteria, creating more weird situations than it creates better results.

That's how I would want it to work.

Honestly, the boundary between the 13 Colonies and Canada is arbitrary beyond being a political boundary.

It's not like the border between Spain and France or Italy and the German nations where there is a clear line between them (in those cases, in the form of mountains).

Borders should not be strict for the sake of historical accuracy when I can take my Reformed Norse Empire of Britannia that owns half of mainland Europe to go colonize the New World.

Some of the Historicals probably hate this DLC already because it allows for dynamically made colonial nations based on who is colonizing what rather than what happened (Brazil, US, and such are no longer guaranteed to exist with historical borders).

But besides that, I just find it kind of a nuisance to have to work within these boundaries even if they make no logical sense for what I am colonizing and were only drawn that way because that's how our history happened to end up, even if I'm playing a reformed West African Empire that has completely destroyed Christianity and Islam.

 

[Verenti]

The regions are a bit ahistoric to begin with, aren't they? I mean, The Canadian Maritimes likely have more in common with the 13 Colonies than with "Canada", which is historically very small. They were sounded out as a "14th Colony" so to speak. The division is anachronistic, and based solely on the idea that Nova Scotia wasn't a revolter in real life. Which had more to do with being a considerable military city and less to do with public opinion. I would make smaller regions that can revolt as a single entity rather than regions based on the boarders of current countries.

 

[Sebor13]

The regions are a bit ahistoric to begin with, aren't they? I mean, The Canadian Maritimes likely have more in common with the 13 Colonies than with "Canada", which is historically very small. They were sounded out as a "14th Colony" so to speak. The division is anachronistic, and based solely on the idea that Nova Scotia wasn't a revolter in real life. Which had more to do with being a considerable military city and less to do with public opinion. I would make smaller regions that can revolt as a single entity rather than regions based on the boarders of current countries.

I feel like that wouldn't even be necessary if they make the boundaries of colonial regions not matter as much.

Thinking about it more, it would be really cool if they made it so that colonizing two parts of a colonial region without having a land border between them would spawn two separate colonial governments.

That would give the player even more options in how they control their colonies because there seems to be very little of that currently.

 

[GamingHUD]

I'm pretty sure they already said that anything bordering a colonial state will be put into it and that they will be able to expand beyond their region.

It was asked a few times and not actually answered. It is entirely possible that placing a colony in another colony region does not join a colony nation if it happens to border it. But this quote kind of muddles the issue up:

As a nation gets more provinces in the New World these cities will automatically be transferred to any existing colonial nation.

The way it is written, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if people took it to mean that colonies bordering an existing colonial nation will join it automatically, regardless of colonial region -though likely with a preference toward a colonial nation formed in that region should one already exist.

Worst case scenario is that this doesn't happen, you should at least be able to sell the colony as you make them, to an existing colonial nation, to prevent a new one from springing up in another region.