Conquest of China shouldn't be possible in 1600s!

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tapewormlondon

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Right, it seems most are agreed that it it should be harder for western countries in terms of not being able to just rofl stomp other continents. But how?

You can't just buff them, look what happened in Eu3 before the Ming nerf. Ming in HRE territory by 1550! And yes I know this contradicts my "it should be possible" statement, but I meant as a player, with effort.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Right, it seems most are agreed that it it should be harder for western countries in terms of not being able to just rofl stomp other continents. But how?

You can't just buff them, look what happened in Eu3 before the Ming nerf. Ming in HRE territory by 1550! And yes I know this contradicts my "it should be possible" statement, but I meant as a player, with effort.

Remove the monarch point penalty, and make #pips closer to Europe. Possibly, give a bonus in tech group's home area that allows it to equal.

Western would still tech 50-60% faster than India/China, but it wouldn't be such a rollfest. There's a small window right now where a reformed native American nation can stomp on China and have superior MP income for ideas with 30+ pip units at tech 20 :/.
 

aitaituo

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Right, it seems most are agreed that it it should be harder for western countries in terms of not being able to just rofl stomp other continents. But how?

Less effect of tech level on combat. Two western nations at mil tech 10 and 12, ceteris paribus, will always have the tech 12 nation win, probably dramatically so.

When you have this effect combined with superior western units in terms of pips, you get small western expeditionary forces conquering China, only limited by sieging time and warscore cost of provinces.

Do the combat ability modifiers still only apply if you have higher mil tech? Because that just multiplies the effect and makes quality near useless for a non-western power.
 

Novacat

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Do the combat ability modifiers still only apply if you have higher mil tech? Because that just multiplies the effect and makes quality near useless for a non-western power.

No, this was fixed. It was this 'fix' that resulted in mil having such a huge effect on battles.
 

grisamentum

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Right, it seems most are agreed that it it should be harder for western countries in terms of not being able to just rofl stomp other continents. But how?

You can't just buff them, look what happened in Eu3 before the Ming nerf. Ming in HRE territory by 1550! And yes I know this contradicts my "it should be possible" statement, but I meant as a player, with effort.

Military unit effectiveness should be based on an combination of tradition, doctrine, weapons.

Fighting with Type 1 unit gives Tradition points. Tradition can be spent on Doctrines. Doctrines are things like +1 Infantry Fire or +20% allowable cavalry ratio.

Researching Military Technology allows for Type 2 units. Don't have a penalty for tech group research.

But when you switch to Type 2 unit, you lose some of your Doctrines and whatever leftover Tradition points.

Then give the Europeans NIs for cheaper Doctrines or something like that (or NIs that give certain Doctrines that can't be lost) while giving Chinese tech groups more expensive Doctrines.

Finally, don't let troops reinforce outside of trade or colonial range and require no blockades of supply path.
 

Magean

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Looks like AI Ming hasn't been taught how to use factions, hence the early collapse it often faces. For a player, factions are an extremely powerful tool.
 

SweetHalcyHS

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Korea was very much easily conquerable - their armies were utter shit. The problem would be actually landing on it.

The Korean Navy... now that's a completely different scenario. As the Japanese unfortunately learned first-hand, ;P.
 

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i totally disagree with the OP.

If you're a good player and you somehow managed to conquer China before the 1600s , more corndogs for you!

You don't need to be a good player. Tercios/Mauricians grind everything east of India (India included) as soon as they come up. Pick up 10k men, ship them to India, conquer everything. No, not coastal cities and trade posts, before someone brings up Portugal - I'm speaking of the whole Southern India. Ming is, to be honest, a bit sui generi - if you find them without the Temples in charge, they will be chewed by everything.
 

grisamentum

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You don't need to be a good player. Tercios/Mauricians grind everything east of India (India included) as soon as they come up. Pick up 10k men, ship them to India, conquer everything. No, not coastal cities and trade posts, before someone brings up Portugal - I'm speaking of the whole Southern India. Ming is, to be honest, a bit sui generi - if you find them without the Temples in charge, they will be chewed by everything.

Everything east of Turkey, really. Miltech 11 Muslim units also have a 12 pips to a Miltech 12 Tercio's 21, and there is no upgrade for Muslim tech between 11 and 20.

Indian tech group at least has a Tercio-parity unit at miltech 12; it's just that they'll still be at miltech 9 when the player is at 15.
 

Magean

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You don't need to be a good player. Tercios/Mauricians grind everything east of India (India included) as soon as they come up. Pick up 10k men, ship them to India, conquer everything. No, not coastal cities and trade posts, before someone brings up Portugal - I'm speaking of the whole Southern India. Ming is, to be honest, a bit sui generi - if you find them without the Temples in charge, they will be chewed by everything.

Aaah, the -20% discipline from not having the Temple in charge is really a thing.
In my Ming game, I was 5 mil techs ahead of my same tech group neighbours. Normally, such a gap means insta-death for the backward opponent. But my victories weren't nearly as impressive as they should have been. I took huge losses, and didn't destroy my enemies as I expected to do.
 

highsis

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The problem being Westernization of their military couldn't happen because of the lack of knowing how European armies operated. Could 30k men in Tercios decimate Qing china? Probably. Is it likely that Spain/any European power could ship 30k Tercios over to China during the 1500-1600's? not at all but naval attrition of troops isn't as strong as it should be. Or Attrition in any place for that matter isn't strong enough, west indies were called the Fever islands for a reason, and siberian colonization wasn't wide spread for a good reason also.

The bias here is absolutely ridiculous that I'm speechless. I will deliver some facts for you.

Qing's estimated population in 17th century is 140 million. Their standing army in 17th century was 600k, probably much more in war time. 400k of them were "8 banners", professional regiments composed of mostly Manchurians. Chinese citizens were mobilized in time of crisis. For comparison, Spain's population was 7.1 million in 1650. 1/20 of Qing.

The odd is not even 3~4 times. It's 20+a vs 1. You might want to note that Ming repelled Dutch from Taiwan while Ming was collapsing with Qing invasion.

And now you could tell me how 30k Tercio can decimate Qing. I'm of the opinion that even if Spain were bordering Qing, Spain would be the one getting conquered if they were to fight a war in 17th century. European powers were ahead in ocean voyage, but that doesn't grant them invincibility in 1:20 odds unless it's against Aztec who didn't even have steel swords.

.... and unless it's in EU4. That's the issue I brought up with this thread.
 
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unmerged(804580)

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Right, it seems most are agreed that it it should be harder for western countries in terms of not being able to just rofl stomp other continents. But how?

You can't just buff them, look what happened in Eu3 before the Ming nerf. Ming in HRE territory by 1550! And yes I know this contradicts my "it should be possible" statement, but I meant as a player, with effort.

Not just buffing China, but buffing up all tech groups below the Ottomans could do. If everyone around them gets the same bonus, Ming will be still equally balanced within its neighborhood, and the problem of "Asia too easy to conquer" will be reduced. If that weakens Ottomans too much or gives Asians too much of a head start, then the buff could come in the mid-to late game when the contact with the West is more likely.

Korea was very much easily conquerable - their armies were utter shit. The problem would be actually landing on it.

The Korean Navy... now that's a completely different scenario. As the Japanese unfortunately learned first-hand, ;P.

You're thinking of 1592. It wasn't even conceivable that Japanese barbarians could even dare attempting an invasion (well, other than a couple of wise men). It changed after the Japanese and the subsequent Manchu invasion; they buffed it up, just as any sane country would do.
 

LapuLapu

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The bias here is absolutely ridiculous that I'm speechless.
I don't see any bias here. Just people delivering their points. As for "it shouldn't be possible for this and that to happen"

It shouldn't be possible for Okinawa to conquer the world, It shouldn't be possible for the Ottomans to be part of the HRE, but it happens. It shouldn't be possible for Tibet to keep Zhou relegated to a few coastal provinces, it shouldn't be possible to bee-line for the Caribbean because of a higher tax-base (it's existence, we are somehow aware of beforehand) and own every province in that region. It shouldn't be possible to own all of Europe as France like I've seen, it shouldn't be possible to colonize California as Japan, but hey...it happens. It's a damn game. If you want to play as Saxony, and you sail a force to China with the purpose and intent to conquer Chinese empires....yet complain about it....that's your own "fault."
 
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highsis

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It's funny how you bring up the Wokou as an example of Qing ineptness.

Wokou raids were at their high between 14-16C, when the Ashikaga Shogunate was powerless over Japan. A lot of the pirates usually lumped together as "Wokou/Wakou" were actually Chinese, and their constant raids were more of a symptom of Ming losing control on itself rather than Japanese military strength. Korea led a successful expedition to Tsushima in 1419; Japan under Toyotomi got their internal problems sorted out and largely stopped the pirates; Qing fortified the targeted areas like Fujian and had little problem defending the coastline.


Now, let's get into a fun historical imagination. Could 30K Western military successfully defeat even Korea in 1650-1700? (Becauase that's the time frame of OP's discussion) For the sake of argument, I'm going to ignore the naval transportation problems because that's basically what we're given in the game. Korea in this time frame was fielding ~45000 standing army. Further, not only that the gunpower weapons were already being widely used for centuries, they also had the knowledge of Western military technology because they had Dutch advisors in weapons manufacturing and military training in the capital. I'll let your imagination run wild. I'd say probably, but not in a roflstomping way.

Agreed.

Korea fielded 170k army in Japanses invasion of 1592, despite having half of its lands conquered. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592–98))

Korea fielded 300k army in 1010 against Khitan invasion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeo–Khitan_War)

Korea fielded 300k army in 612 against Sui invasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo–Sui_War#Second_expedition_of_612)

The population gap between Eastern Asia and Europe is larger than what people normally think. The difference only became relatively less after industrial revolution.

I personally think 30k Tercio can conquer Korea under the condition that they magically appear in the port of Busan without loss, but there is no chance that would work against Qing in 17th century even if they had pulled that magic off.
 
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Novacat

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LapuLapu

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Points that turn out to be completely wrong.
How are they wrong. It's all opinion. Who's to say what should or shouldn't be possible? We all know the West came out ahead by the end of this time frame. Are we going to say: "it shouldn't be possible for any other nation but a western nation to dominate by 1822." It's a game, we play to do things that weren't likely, or change history.

BTW someone here posted a "Malaya Empire" under the "post your empire thread"....that shouldn't be possible. It's not possible for Malaya to own every SE Asian province, and the WHOLE of Eastern Africa, I say we nerf any nation in the SE Asian region to keep that from happening.
 

unmerged(804580)

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Korea fielded 170k army in Japanses invasion of 1592, despite having half of its lands conquered.

Korea fielded 300k army in 1010 against Khitan invasion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeo–Khitan_War)

Korea fielded 300k army in 612 against Sui invasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo–Sui_War#Second_expedition_of_612)

The population gap between Eastern Asia and Europe is larger than what people normally think.

I personally think 30k Tercio can conquer Korea under the condition that they magically appear in the port of Busan without loss, but there is no chance that would work against Qing in 17th century even if they pull that magic off.

Yes, I didn't include the massive militia that will most likely appear, nor the possibility of further conscription. The figure of 45K I cited was just the standing army while the nation was at peace.
 

LapuLapu

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You don't need to be a good player. Tercios/Mauricians grind everything east of India (India included) as soon as they come up. Pick up 10k men, ship them to India, conquer everything. No, not coastal cities and trade posts, before someone brings up Portugal - I'm speaking of the whole Southern India. Ming is, to be honest, a bit sui generi - if you find them without the Temples in charge, they will be chewed by everything.
Well if it ruins the illusion of realism for you, don't send 10k men to India and conquer everything. I've yet to see the AI do it. At least before the time the British did it IRL.
 

Theevillord

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We are playing a game in the end. If a player is skillful enough, he or she should be able to conquer China. However the way China is in game right now is just absurd. It's a broken nation right from the start. I would love to see a expansion focus on fixing Asia. China isn't the only problem. India is just as broken. It's just a weak paint it yellow/red/blue area for European powers to colonize. I've never seen the Timurids form the Mughals, never, and I've been playing the game from the start. Both the Mughals and China were until the 1700's expanding powerhouses not to be messed with.

The laughable euro-centric explanations portraying China or India as extremely weak states compared to the Europeans simply show a lack of historic knowledge of these areas. Why comment on things you don't know nothing about?