Conquest of America: the biologic choc

[unmerged(136692)]

It is confirms by many observators, and sociologue as Jared Diamond: The conquest on a long term perspective was caused by the weaker immune system of the native american (because of less domesticated animals in contact with humans - only lama & turkey)

It results that when Cortes discover the Aztec empire, it was at least as populated than spain probably more. few years later in 1521, Mexico/Tenochtitlan was dying because of variole or others flu

the cherokee civilisation disappeared before european discovered them because of flu.
Inca's population they disapears by 90% in 20-30 years, because of flu mostly.
The results it not theses civilization became absoltly weak and not able to sustain their own civilization and culture. Nobody to use the agriculture in terrace. they disappear. Nobody for precolombian religion, let's put church etc. all agricultural civilization get very strongly touched by the flu, immediatly they started to trade with Europe. This a fact that EU4 should incorporate.

China was as weak as america face to Europe invasions in terms of technology. But they had a good immune system, and only in XIX century European was able to really defeat the chinese.

So native american civilisation do not need huge handicap for their technology, but their challenge will be manage this immune problem, before the Eurasian visit them, and destroy them. may be by visiting them before, or having trade contact with eurasia. I think the window of opportunities of European after 1492, was 150 years. After populations recovers from the biologic choc. and are slowly able to defend.

 

[Fishman786]

What's a choc? Sounds like it tastes good...

 

[Sir Iain]

First part: true.
second part (comparing Chinese technology with European) not so much.
There's an entire thread devoted to these issues.
Nonetheless, I'd like some model for the diseases to be in the game.

 

[Haresus]

Well, from a gameplay perspective, playing as the Native Americans, only for 90% of your population to drop dead when the Europeans arrived would be kinda meh.

 

[Evie HJ]

the cherokee civilisation disappeared before european discovered them because of flu.

The Cherokee were a significant tribal power until the very end of EU3, which is when their territory was conquered. They hadn't become "less civilized" or anything of the sort due to flu. You may be thinking of the Missippian/Mound Builder civilizations, but we don't know whose tribe they were related to.

 

[The Bishop]

I quite like Jared Diamond, having read one of his publications on sedentism and farming. I've also read (not from Jared Diamond, I don't think, but perhaps I'll pop in the reference here later) that many Native Americans actually joined the Spanish to aid in overthrowing their Aztec rulers.

And yes, I think disease should feature in this respect, but making it doom Native Americans with something like a severe manpower decrease as soon as the conquistadors land would be not so nice.

Perhaps some sort of disease event occurring in individual provinces adjacent to colonial holdings could work.

 

[Dafool]

As was discussed in a few different threads already, it is fairly vital to the game's representation of the New World and colonization for some portrayal of the diseases to be present. However, as someone who's designed such a system before, it's a bit challenging to create. The primary problem is that EU hardly touches upon population and demographics. Having large population decreases in the decades following European contact makes logical sense to include, but it has very little effect on the game. I hear that Sunset Invasion for CK2 involves some events showing a humorous reversal of the situation, although I'm not familiar with how it's modeled there. However, it's been suggested that Sunset Invasion was a testing ground for new content in EU4, so some of the mechanics and ideas there might very well carry over.

 

[Fawr]

CK2 has disease mechanics already for plauges (think of the black death), so I wouldn't read too much to that part of the sunset invasion. They stop you raising troops, increase attrition (which CK2 event driven invaders are immune from) and kill your characters (nobles, kings, councillers, heirs, 3rd cousins, etc), and leave the rest diseased. Not many of those disease mechanics translate across well to what we know of EU4.

Regarding the OP, if you want disease there is general support on the forums for that to be moddeled. However if you want to talk about how American tech is the equal of chinese tech then join the main thread on the playability of the americas.

 

[unmerged(136692)]

Yes it was the Mississippi civilization I was talking about.

By talking about technology decrepency, I wanted to pointed out that the technology discripency did not matter too much in comparaison to the democraphic problem. Everywhere the demography stayed strong enough, the native was able to bring European in difficulties to maintain their occupation.

in the case of america, all tribs which was nomad, or not based on agriculturs civilisation get conquers much later by european for two reasons:
- they get less touched by the flu, because their way of living was not in cities which are important in the flu spreading to population
- the spanish could not do any putch as Pizarre or Cortes did, because they did not have centralized power organized their population.
Inca & Aztec were very well organize and became absolutly weaker by the flu and the demographic problems. Their system just collapse by lack of people to maintain it. Spainish conquered deserted cities which was not anymore appropriate for fewer population.

To go back to the game, this flu impact should impact the structure of the main cities which could not maintain it: -> all major cities should have their building back to level 1, at least for 100-150 years the time to recover from the flu.
Nomad population, in north america or south Chili, should be too much impacted, or at least not till some conquistador will give them some cover full of virus as did spanish and US.
The manpower some how should be impacted, but may be also at the beginning the attrition of the armies.

To keep the game play for people who want to play the native american civilization, please note that Inca continue rebellion with some Inca emperor till very late in the colonization. A player may continue to play, as a rebels. in that some specific game play for rebels nation should developped. like free spy, free diplomat, capacity to steal technology etc.

Also please note that couple of colonization was also at the beginning difficult because of some local disease that European did not know. but the statistic impact was minor, but should be able to impact some leader or general by random event.

 

[VI Imre]

You can't colonise America without machineguns anyway.