Conquering provinces behind the enemy line

[Super Izumo]

The current system is fine as it is, simply put Daniel made 2 rookie mistakes for a "Hoi4 Master" and Johan I think basically called him out on it in a funny way. Daniel's 2 mistakes are as follows.

1. He had 0 planes in the air defending Berlin, Johan could have also launched a mass bombing campaign and really screwed him over but he didn't. (It also seems there is no provincial AA anymore or am I wrong?)

2. He also had no troops defending his key areas which any somewhat experienced player would do and certainly someone who is seen as a "Hoi4 Master" in the company would also do. Even his AI allies had troops defending their key areas.

Could some things be changed? Maybe? Does something need to be changed? In my opinion no it is fine as is.

 

[No idea]

The current system is fine as it is, simply put Daniel made 2 rookie mistakes for a "Hoi4 Master" and Johan I think basically called him out on it in a funny way. Daniel's 2 mistakes are as follows.

1. He had 0 planes in the air defending Berlin, Johan could have also launched a mass bombing campaign and really screwed him over but he didn't. (It also seems there is no provincial AA anymore or am I wrong?)

2. He also had no troops defending his key areas which any somewhat experienced player would do and certainly someone who is seen as a "Hoi4 Master" in the company would also do. Even his AI allies had troops defending their key areas.

Could some things be changed? Maybe? Does something need to be changed? In my opinion no it is fine as is.

So paradroping over Berlin when your nearest forces are 1000 kms away is realistic? You could very weel ask them to commit suicide, that way you at least will save lots of equipment and suffering to your men.

The kamikaze paradrops are an extremely gamey and unrealistic "feature". If they cant be stopped from happening tweakening the rules, then house rules preventing them should be a must. Of course, a diferent thing is if you want to especifically allow them for some reason. The problem is the AI cant understand the difference.

 

[General Baker]

Seems like HOI4 could do with an implicit 'garrison force' like forts in EU4 have. Would save the player the boring, inevitable work of setting up basic defences. Of course, provinces could still be reinforced with controllable divisions, but it shouldn't be the only option...

 

[LostinSpice]

So paradroping over Berlin when your nearest forces are 1000 kms away is realistic? You could very weel ask them to commit suicide, that way you at least will save lots of equipment and suffering to your men.

The kamikaze paradrops are an extremely gamey and unrealistic "feature". If they cant be stopped from happening tweakening the rules, then house rules preventing them should be a must. Of course, a diferent thing is if you want to especifically allow them for some reason. The problem is the AI cant understand the difference.

Totally agree about this. It was a very gamey thing to do, though it did show off paras for the first time in HOI4. Of course this was a player's choice as USA was by then controlled by a player, so it would be difficult to stop. I'd like to think the AI would shy away from this sort of thing.

Perhaps if Daniel had had fighters defending the area they would have intercepted the transports and downed quite a few or even made the mission abort?

 

[Super Izumo]

So paradroping over Berlin when your nearest forces are 1000 kms away is realistic? You could very weel ask them to commit suicide, that way you at least will save lots of equipment and suffering to your men.

The kamikaze paradrops are an extremely gamey and unrealistic "feature". If they cant be stopped from happening tweakening the rules, then house rules preventing them should be a must. Of course, a diferent thing is if you want to especifically allow them for some reason. The problem is the AI cant understand the difference.

Yes it's realistic because you can do that in real life. Is it PRACTICAL? Oh god no and if you want to send some of your para forces to their death then go right ahead you have the power to do that. I however won't waste my troops like that. As we've seen in WWW the AI is capable of defending it's VPs (Daniel took a look at his allies who all had homeland defense armies and some scattered about the front with his forces) and so would any player in MP especially with having their own Fighters in the air to intercept them.

Totally agree about this. It was a very gamey thing to do, though it did show off paras for the first time in HOI4. Of course this was a player's choice as USA was by then controlled by a player, so it would be difficult to stop. I'd like to think the AI would shy away from this sort of thing.

Perhaps if Daniel had had fighters defending the area they would have intercepted the transports and downed quite a few or even made the mission abort?

After Johan's division landed in Berlin he asked Daniel if he had any plans defending that airspace and Daniel said no he forgot and then he quickly started assigning Air wings to defend his territory.

The current system is fine because like I said the AI will have troops defending it's VPs and so should you especially in a MP game and you should always try to have some kind of AA coverage either from Fighters or ground based to prevent this from happening.

It's something you as the player have the power to prevent quite easily so why change the system? The AI will most likely never attempt such Suicide drops and if you are in MP and you decide you don't need homeland troops or Air coverage over your VPs then the other players have every right to take advantage of that and use it against you because odds are they are prepared to stop such a thing so why shouldn't you?

 

[jovialmadness]

No paradrop in WW2 was for permanent results. Let me be clear on this, garrisons or field troops took over control of the initial drop zones eventually. Every one of them was meant as a benefit to an overall plan where the eventual result was for the paratroops to reform with friendly units. I am pretty sure everyone knows this.

Having said that, i kinda agree that any paratroops in a territory should own that territory. If they leave that territory, it should revert. Its my opinion that normal field combat divisions that take territory have the capability to retain ownership due to more indepth organization within their divisions. I just dont see how a paratroop division would be capable of leaving behind anything similar to what an organized field HQ would be capable of or have access to.

Just my opinion..

 

[CharlieFox]

Maybe a tooltip could warn you when you have a victory point or a port within enemy range ungarrisoned ( you could also have the option to dismiss the tooltip for certain states if you wish )

 

[No idea]

The AI will most likely never attempt such Suicide drops

As it didnt try "banzai" landings?

On any case, in a MP game things should be as players decide in home rules, but in a game against the AI, there should be in game rules that forbids things that simply and plainly didnt happen. Was it possible to tell your men to commit suicide? Of course, it is possible, no phisical law forbids that. did it happen? No, for obvious reasons. Just as telling them to paradrop over Berlin when the nearest friendly unit is 1000 kms away for no other thing that taking a thing called "victory points".

 

[Ruck]

Yes it's realistic because you can do that in real life. Is it PRACTICAL? Oh god no and if you want to send some of your para forces to their death then go right ahead you have the power to do that. I however won't waste my troops like that. As we've seen in WWW the AI is capable of defending it's VPs (Daniel took a look at his allies who all had homeland defense armies and some scattered about the front with his forces) and so would any player in MP especially with having their own Fighters in the air to intercept them.



After Johan's division landed in Berlin he asked Daniel if he had any plans defending that airspace and Daniel said no he forgot and then he quickly started assigning Air wings to defend his territory.

The current system is fine because like I said the AI will have troops defending it's VPs and so should you especially in a MP game and you should always try to have some kind of AA coverage either from Fighters or ground based to prevent this from happening.

It's something you as the player have the power to prevent quite easily so why change the system? The AI will most likely never attempt such Suicide drops and if you are in MP and you decide you don't need homeland troops or Air coverage over your VPs then the other players have every right to take advantage of that and use it against you because odds are they are prepared to stop such a thing so why shouldn't you?

I Respectfully Disagree.

Im a big Paradox Fan from the beginning on. Started with the first Victoria game (The biggest Micromanagement game that ever existed ), then CK1, EU1, HOI2 ( HOI 1 is the only game i never touched from Paradox )

And what i really, really love, is the new way that Paradox goes since Vicky 2 and EU4. Its the way to get less micro and macro management to games and make the games more fun and less boring work.

Why should I have to take care, that I have Garrisons in every single VP Province? That is just boring work for me and I cant see a big sense here, because in reality terms ....... no one would ever paradrop over Berlin, Moskau, London or Dresden, when the next friendly Army is 1000Km away...... And even without Garrisons, there are so much men under weapons in big provinces/cities, we have police forces, military reserve units, maybe civil people have weapons ( depends on the country ), paramilitary units like in germany the SA, all these people wouldnt say " omg Fritz, look ! there are Paratroopers over our heads, we should call Moscow that the war is over, I mean now the Brits will have 18 Victory Points for whole 3 Days...... Game Over

Well, that touches anyway only Multiplayer, because the AI won´t ever do so, but it is too easy for us Humans to exploit the AI in Singleplayer games with that strategy.
Just drop some troops over VP Provinces and they will retract important forces from the front 1000KM away, thats the same as cheating ( which is for sure ok in a single player game, everyone can play like he wants, but we have console commands for that )

And it just doesnt seem right that paratroopers can conquere provinces behind the enemy line.......... Paratroopers are just (extreme good trained) soldiers, men with weapons and nothing more, they can not administrate whole provinces, they can not suppress and so on, they are only combat units. Its the same like we could conquere Provinces with Bombers......

 

[PanosB3]

Having said this, it would make sense in my eyes, too, to make cities and whatnot actually require a certain number of troops to assault, like a proper division, but not for this reason. If you lose your capital to paratroopers, that is indeed your fault for not considering this possiblitiy, not a shortcoming of the game.

Does losing Berlin or any capital of a major country from paratroopers sound plausible at any given time except when its one of the last provinces? Of course not and that's why parachuting into the capital of an enemy country (especially Germany in this particular case) should in most cases just result in total defeat. And no realistic person would ever think the possibility of that happening exactly because its suicidal.

 

[safe-keeper]

Why should I have to take care, that I have Garrisons in every single VP Province? That is just boring

This is a WWII grand strategy game where the smallest unit you move is a division. Sorry to say this, but simply placing units strategically so that your harbours, cities and whatnot are protected isn't exactly high-level micro-management. Even the Civilization games have you do that .

Well, that touches anyway only Multiplayer, because the AI won´t ever do so, but it is too easy for us Humans to exploit the AI in Singleplayer games with that strategy.

Of course they do. If the AI sees an important objective left completely undefended, of course they are going to go for it, they'd be pretty naïve not to. Last time I played as Russia in HOI3, I suddenly noticed my resources were at zero, then I am informed by a pop-up I had lost Moscow out of nowhere, and then when I hit "Go-to", I see a German airborne division hanging out there.

 

[jamesd]

This is a WWII grand strategy game where the smallest unit you move is a division. Sorry to say this, but simply placing units strategically so that your harbours, cities and whatnot are protected isn't exactly high-level micro-management. Even the Civilization games have you do that .

Just a note that HOI has never modelled training & replacement forces which generally provide a lot of the home defence manpower. They're the guys who make landing on Berlin a bad idea when the main part of the army is deep in Russia or defending the French coast.

 

[safe-keeper]

And it just doesnt seem right that paratroopers can conquere provinces behind the enemy line.......... Paratroopers are just (extreme good trained) soldiers, men with weapons and nothing more, they can not administrate whole provinces, they can not suppress and so on, they are only combat units. Its the same like we could conquere Provinces with Bombers......

Except that's how the Paradox games work. We could have a rule that you need x amount of people to permanently capture a province, or adapt EU's system where you have to control cities or forts to permanently capture the neighbouring provinces, but then that would have to be a global thing, not something that applied only to airborne units.

 

[Praetori]

Does losing Berlin or any capital of a major country from paratroopers sound plausible at any given time except when its one of the last provinces? Of course not and that's why parachuting into the capital of an enemy country (especially Germany in this particular case) should in most cases just result in total defeat. And no realistic person would ever think the possibility of that happening exactly because its suicidal.

Capitals and other large or important cities being single area provinces has that effect. A single battalion division could in-game effectively occupy Moscow, London, New York, Tokyo or any other major city (no Black Hawk Down here no).
Dividing cities into several smaller provinces would be one method and would also provide more granular battles like Stalingrad. Another method being requirements of a specific number of manpower in a force per VP to completely capture a province or enough time to actually secure it (something along the line of the siege mechanic in EU4 but for control instead).

Also I'm not fond of the idea of sending soldiers on suicide missions like dropping paras in Berlin without penalties. The fighting spirit at home (or in the unit unless proper brainwashed kamikaze) would take a hit or you'd at least face some pretty nasty political effects when you send young soldiers to die in vain (think Gallipoli).

 

[Premu]

Well, at least in HOI 3 the AI did defend its capital with at least a garnision as simply taking it would screw the country over. At least after a patch after people complained about this exploit. In the same patch the AI had learned to do the same exploit against the human player should he be so foolish and not guard his capital.

 

[Snow Wolf]

Wow, Devs make one joke and everyone is ranting threads about it..

 

[SwoopDaWoop]

I think the capture of cities/other VP areas should require a certain number of troops and the number required should scale with how many points the province is worth and the enemies national unity. So, for instance, a city like Berlin in 1942 shouldn't be conquered at all by a couple of battalions of paratroopers, but should require a couple divisions worth of paratroopers to capture. This would require a significant investment of resources on behalf of the player conducting the operation. This would still allow the player to drop paratroopers on some random province that isn't worth VPs and still be able to capture it.

 

[Praetori]

Wow, Devs make one joke and everyone is ranting threads about it..

Leaving Berling without any protection is pretty ahistorical aye but so is dropping a battalion of suicide paras there and capturing it. The main issue is that a very small force can move through and occupy vast areas (as evident by the www where small units march through Switzerland and then deep into France) or simply waltz into London, New York or Tokyo and de-facto gain control overnight just by marching through it. Liberation is one thing but capturing and occupying hostile cores with a battalion sized unit just moving through is a pretty big exploit allowed by the game mechanic and diminishes both the SP and MP experience. At least at the current speed/progression vs ability to occupy territory by a small unit.

 

[safe-keeper]

Would love to hear input from the devs on this.

 

[Super Izumo]

And it just doesnt seem right that paratroopers can conquere provinces behind the enemy line.......... Paratroopers are just (extreme good trained) soldiers, men with weapons and nothing more, they can not administrate whole provinces, they can not suppress and so on, they are only combat units. Its the same like we could conquere Provinces with Bombers......

Oh but normal Infantry can administrate whole provinces when they are the same thing?

Paratroopers are Infantry trained to jump from planes (as far as WW2 is concerned) after they landed they became normal infantry units so saying they can't conquer a province when Infantry can makes no sense at all.

Saying they can't suppress, only MP units can do that so it wouldn't matter if it was Paras or regular Inf divisions or any other ground unit that took a Province, hence why MPs are units in the game.

Also there is no such thing as "Administrating" in this game, you are OCCUPYING a province, marching in with guns saying "We own this now, your land and resources belong to us." you can use a portion of any factories there which vary based on Occupation Laws (notice how they are called Occupation Laws not Administration Laws). There is a difference between Occupying an area and Governing an area as if it was your own.

Invisible garrison forces like in EU or CK don't exist in Hoi and may never will. Hence why you can build simple Garrison forces to defend your provinces from Airborne or Seaborne invasions or anything else because this being a Strategy game you have to be prepared for that. Provincial Garrisons work in a game like EU and CK but not in Hoi it would be a Lazy Man's system in Hoi.

The other major point here is most people would never launch such an attack unless the intended Victim really did decide they don't need troops defending their VPs (At the very least have Fighters guarding the skies) in which case they by all means deserve to have it happen to them.



I will however give you this. Regardless if it was a Suicide Paradrop or a regular attack. I think it shouldn't be an instant "You've Lost" if your VPs are taken. I think there should rightfully be a delay such as having to hold the VPs completely for a small amount of time and if the VPs are under attack (You attempting to take it back) than they should not count towards the NU until they are fully occupied without incident.

Example if I paradropped into Berlin, it shouldn't immediately count towards their Surrender Progress/NU until I've held Berlin for a set amount of time thus giving the AI/Player the chance to take it back before it counts against them.