Conquering provinces behind the enemy line

[Ruck]

After I watched the last WWW it had remind me to some awkward moments in HOI II and III Multiplayer games with some buddys.

It is about : Taking provinces behind the enemy line with Paratroops.

For sure Paratroops should have a good role ingame, like in history they were important f.e. on Creta or in the Normandy to help the Front ( give the frontline Support from behind ), they were no superduper rambos.

So i think it shouldnt be possible for troops ( not only Paratroops ) to "Conquer" a province which is behind the Front, so if there is a enemy controlled province inbetween, the connections to the front is lost.

I have the same feature in mind like Europa Universalis 4 has, with the Forts, if you have not conquered the Fort Province, you can only control a neighbouring province, but if you leave it and the Fort province isnt conquered, the province will regain controll from the owning country ( in Eu4 after a month, I think in Hoi4 it should be instant )

Why this ?

1.) It is not possible for paratroopers to conquer a whole province, they dont have the support lines, they dont have military police and so on, they are special troops with a special (fighting) mission, they dont can administrate a whole province and suppress the civil people.

2.) Not only from historical view, but also from a gaming view, it shouldnt be possible f.e. for a british player to land some paratroops over Berlin, and take the whole Brandenburg country after some days, until the german player could draw back some troops.


So yeah, my Idea for Hoi4 would be that a province which is not controlled from troops ( empty ) and is behind the enemy line should regain controll from the owner state. Exactly the same way like it is in Eu4 with Forts and neigbouring provinces.

So f.e. If the british paratoops leave Berlin to Potsdam, instantly after leaving, Berlin it will regain controll to Germany.

Its just an Idea to prevent stupid situations in multiplayer games but also to not exploit the AI in singleplayer.

What do you think ?

 

[RebelScum88]

I think theres some merit to this idea. Though it might work differently for occupied territories, especially if they have high resistance, then they could set up their own administration for the territory

 

[Ruck]

And I can also remember how easy it was to exploit the AI with paratroops, like in HOI3 as Russia, I just mass spammed paratroops very far behind the enemy line, in the middle of Germany, I event didnt cared how long they will make it. But the AI drawed so many troops back to middle Germany that it allowed me to have a breakthrough on the Front and Germany lost very fast after this. Some of the "ParaRambos" even survived

 

[Vidkjaer]

After I watched the last WWW it had remind me to some awkward moments in HOI II and III Multiplayer games with some buddys.

It is about : Taking provinces behind the enemy line with Paratroops.

For sure Paratroops should have a good role ingame, like in history they were important f.e. on Creta or in the Normandy to help the Front ( give the frontline Support from behind ), they were no superduper rambos.

So i think it shouldnt be possible for troops ( not only Paratroops ) to "Conquer" a province which is behind the Front, so if there is a enemy controlled province inbetween, the connections to the front is lost.

I have the same feature in mind like Europa Universalis 4 has, with the Forts, if you have not conquered the Fort Province, you can only control a neighbouring province, but if you leave it and the Fort province isnt conquered, the province will regain controll from the owning country ( in Eu4 after a month, I think in Hoi4 it should be instant )

Why this ?

1.) It is not possible for paratroopers to conquer a whole province, they dont have the support lines, they dont have military police and so on, they are special troops with a special (fighting) mission, they dont can administrate a whole province and suppress the civil people.

2.) Not only from historical view, but also from a gaming view, it shouldnt be possible f.e. for a british player to land some paratroops over Berlin, and take the whole Brandenburg country after some days, until the german player could draw back some troops.


So yeah, my Idea for Hoi4 would be that a province which is not controlled from troops ( empty ) and is behind the enemy line should regain controll from the owner state. Exactly the same way like it is in Eu4 with Forts and neigbouring provinces.

So f.e. If the british paratoops leave Berlin to Potsdam, instantly after leaving, Berlin it will regain controll to Germany.

Its just an Idea to prevent stupid situations in multiplayer games but also to not exploit the AI in singleplayer.

What do you think ?

Then dont leave Berlin undefended.
The latest video shows the AI for Italy and Spain ude Area defense command effectively defending cities and Victory points so the AI is better now, but I get your point.

So if the allies pushes the front to just outside Berlin provinces behind them shift back to German hands?

 

[Ruck]

Then dont leave Berlin undefended.
The latest video shows the AI for Italy and Spain ude Area defense command effectively defending cities and Victory points so the AI is better now, but I get your point.

So if the allies pushes the front to just outside Berlin provinces behind them shift back to German hands?

Exactly, If the Allies ( for example ) landed in Berlin and are totally surrounded by enemys and then they leave Berlin to a neighbouring province ( which will also be totally surrounded of enemys besides Berlin ) and they leave Berlin alone and empty, then Berlin should get back to be german controlled, let us just imagine that the german people of Berlin retook control, because the Allies leaved ( Police Forces and so on )

Eventually, this might be only true for Paratroops, because if a regular army got enclosed by enemy forces, they might have enough power and administration skills to fully conquer provinces, even if totally in enemy territory ( behind the line ).... Eventually...

Because when I think on Fantasy-History where let us say the 6th. German Army in Stalingrad ( Gen. Paulus ) would have gotten a free chance to break through the encirclement, they would rush back to the German Front and i doubt that they would have left Soldiers there to control Stalingrad ( So Stalingrad would change back to Russia, even without Russian troops)

 

[bkuepers]

I respectfully disagree. If they drop in a location that is undefended, the other side should have to take it back. Look at an operation like Market Garden. The paratroopers were dropped "A bridge too far" and many British were lost because the Armor didn't move quick enough to reinforce them. The current system can accurately model that pretty well. You just have to make sure to garrison all VPs and ports which is a historical thing. Even critical bridges were garrisoned during WWII, which is below the scale of this game.

 

[Ruck]

I respectfully disagree. If they drop in a location that is undefended, the other side should have to take it back. Look at an operation like Market Garden. The paratroopers were dropped "A bridge too far" and many British were lost because the Armor didn't move quick enough to reinforce them. The current system can accurately model that pretty well. You just have to make sure to garrison all VPs and ports which is a historical thing. Even critical bridges were garrisoned during WWII, which is below the scale of this game.

Yes you are right, in the situation you have described " Market Garden " the province should stay dutch or british. But if whe talk about core german, russian, british ect. provinces, what then ? ..

What exactly do you mean with " The current system can accurately model that pretty well "

Is there something which was not shown in the WWW Video ? Like more supply restrictements for surrounded troops ?

Lets take the market garden example up to Hearts of Iron 3 :

Like in reality some british Paratroops were dropped a bridge too far, but in the HOI3 universum, they didnt died, the british paratroopers had Gallic Superpower Hot-Water with milk, brewed from a mysterios person, named something like "Miraculix" and with that help they took the whole Benelux States+Rheinland. When the German Main Army finally arrived, the paratroops could withdraw back to the british front, no problem.

I didnt want to take the power from paratroops to combat, theire purpose should be exactly like it was in market garden, to help the front from behind, but in reality they dropped the paras at market garden territory, not in Hannover ( that could be possible in HOI3 )

 

[Jamey]

Unless i misunderstand what you want, this sounds like a recipe for extreme frustration. Your troops get cut off (say by Johan's naval landing in Norway in the WWW) and suddenly you can't retake territory to rejoin your supply lines.

 

[bkuepers]

What exactly do you mean with " The current system can accurately model that pretty well "

I simply meant I think the system of dropping troops on a territory and controlling it if its not defended is fine as is. The troops will be lost in short order if the territory is garrisoned enough and you drop too far behind enemy lines.

If you have air superiority and your transports are in range, it should be allowed to happen. The bigger issue here may be reaching Berlin and not having most of the transports shot down and the actual range itself.

Like in reality some british Paratroops were dropped a bridge too far, but in the HOI3 universum, they didnt died, the british paratroopers had Gallic Superpower Hot-Water with milk, brewed from a mysterios person, named something like "Miraculix" and with that help they took the whole Benelux States+Rheinland. When the German Main Army finally arrived, the paratroops could withdraw back to the british front, no problem.

The troops in Berlin were crushed. Also the troops dropped in Switzerland rushing to Paris were crushed as well unless I missed something. If Daniel would have had the VP's garrisoned correctly they would have ran out of supply. If not that is an issue with the supply system then I guess.

 

[Evan05]

I agree the system of paratroopers needs work, as while Johan dropping a paratrooper on Berlin was funny, it would probably get very annoying and frustrating in say multiplayer if players kept doing it over and over again.

However I don't think adopting the fort system from EU4, a game meant to take place in the age of discovery and colonization, would work well.

 

[Denkt]

Paratroopers are really expensive and transport planes are hardly cheap either. Yes while the game may make them overpowered compared to what they was in reality, a careful player should have little trouble against them and their use are thus limited but even then they can still do substantial damage if used at the correct locations at the correct time.

 

[myrogia]

It seems like having to check if a conquered province is behind friendly lines might prove troublesome and could lead to annoying bugs. Why not just have a check to see if a conquered province is surrounded by all enemy provinces? If all of the bordering provinces are enemy controlled, the conquered province will revert control as the invading force leaves. If there's at least one province that is friendly controlled, you retain control. This means that you can't just drop a single paratrooper division and wreak a swath of destruction, you'll need 2+ divisions in order to actually hold any territory.

Alternatively, maybe cities could have some sort of buff that would require a certain percentage of bordering provinces to be conquered if you want the city itself to remain in your control when your forces leave it. This would mean that paratroopers would be able to conquer and hold non-city territory easily, but require more divisions and more time to conquer and hold any cities. For instance, you land two divisions in Berlin. One division stays behind to defend the city while the other goes around occupying the surrounding provinces. Once enough provinces are occupied, the Berlin division will be able to move out with the city remaining under your control. There would be little effect on the front lines of war. You would only be required to defend conquered cities until the surrounding areas were pacified, which seems reasonable to me.

 

[fastfreddie77]

Air dropping into small or lightly populated areas in enemy territory ... they could control the main roads/bridges even in hostile areas. Now air dropping into Berlin would be suicide just given the hostile nature of the surroundings and population size but like others said "don't leave your capital unguarded".

 

[Wimpola]

This will take away the whole meaning of paratroopers of going behind enemy lines and ruining and capturing areas. Lets say you have naval invaded and you are trying to expand out of a beachhead, well you can't unless you leave 1 division behind just to take some land. Or if you fly in troops you can't take any land. It doesn't really make any since to get rid of special units or ability to cut enemy units off and encircle them.

 

[PanosB3]

Some cities shouldn't be able to be conquered via paratroopers... its ridiculous to see berlin fall from them unless its one of the last 10-15 provinces.... what should I do load all my troops on airplanes and send paratroopers on Washington DC?
Perhaps ban capitals and surrounding provinces to be parachuted in besides enemy has x provinces or x distance from nearest front...

 

[jamesd]

The whole problem with paratroopers on Berlin or any other place within a densely populated major power is that nations have training, replacement and logistics infrastructures that have lots of troops in them. They also tend to have people in essential war time production and those not fit for full service organised in home guard type units. Even when there is no division in Berlin, it still contains lots of armed people and Germany could mobilise trainees nearby to come and contest the city. This whole necessary infrastructure to keeping an army running isn't and has never been represented in the HOI series.

If there was a mechanic whereby manpower had to be trained before units could absorb replacements, then there would be training units kept at home in all countries and parachuting a division into the enemy's heartland would not achieve much. Even if it was HOI3 and a theatre HQ was in the capital (and not forced to retreat at the slightest contact), it would be an improvement.

 

[safe-keeper]

Some cities shouldn't be able to be conquered via paratroopers... its ridiculous to see berlin fall from them unless its one of the last 10-15 provinces....

Yes, it sucks to lose important provinces to paradrops, amphibious assaults, and so on. Which is why you should make sure to garrison these provinces to keep this from happening. Which also acts as a nice balancing factor as you'll be spreading your forces out to protect the territory you seize as you advance.

what should I do load all my troops on airplanes and send paratroopers on Washington DC?

Sounds very gamey and will hopefully not be possible.

Perhaps ban capitals and surrounding provinces to be parachuted in besides enemy has x provinces or x distance from nearest front...

Let's not. Makes as little sense as if I was to say that tanks shouldn't be allowed to "blitz" deep into enemy territory. If you're worried about assets in your rear areas, guard them.


Having said this, it would make sense in my eyes, too, to make cities and whatnot actually require a certain number of troops to assault, like a proper division, but not for this reason. If you lose your capital to paratroopers, that is indeed your fault for not considering this possiblitiy, not a shortcoming of the game.

 

[Porkman]

Would this mechanic only apply to paratroopers? How would this work with somewhere like China?

In practice, when the Japanese conquered territory and then left, the vacuum was filled by either Nationalist or communist forces.

Also, what would define the "Start" of a line? If Japan lands a division in Burma, is the start of the line Rangoon?

I could see a situation where the Japanese are blitzing up from the coast. THey have a string of 7 provinces.. One division in Rangoon, the other going for Mandalay. It's a line of 7 provinces like this.

Rangoon (1 Japanese Division) - Province 2- Province 3 - Province 4 - Province 5 - Province 6 - Mandalay (1 Japanese Division).

Let's say the British player kicks the Japanese player out of Rangoon and takes Provinces 3 and 5.

Rangoon (British Division) - Province 2 (1 Japanese Division) - Province 3 (British Division) - Province 4 - Province 5 (British Division) - Province 6 - Mandalay. (1 Japanese Division)

What happens?

Are Provinces 4 and 6 considered "behind the lines" single provinces or does Britain still have to conquer them?

Basically, does the map look like the above or instantly switch to this as unoccupied "Behind the lines" single provinces switch?

Rangoon (British Division) - Province 2 (1 Japanese Division) - Province 3 (British Division) - Province 4 - Province 5 (British Division) - Province 6 - Mandalay. (1 Japanese Division)

I could see this backfilling as a cool mechanic though very complex.

 

[Lord Dakier]

Why not just have a system where once the paratroopers have left you have an open tile effect. Any and all supplies can pass through providing there is no damage to infrastructure and so on. If you clear the place of enemies then leave effectively you're free to pass. Maybe this shouldn't be the case for cities.

 

[No idea]

I agree with the op. The only operation I know during ww ii similar to the kamikaze paradrops many players do is when the 82th airborne was ordered to paradropd in Rome. And that operation was finally cancelled. Most commanders thought it was suicidal.