Conquering Europe in Personal Unions

[Chronicler]

I've never been that fond of personal unions mainly because I find them useless when in war (since they grab land for themselves and not for me, why I prefer vassal allies)

But I'm thinking of doing a WC now with major early forced PUs. And was wondering what is best (I got almost 0 experience in PUs all together)

My thoughts were something like this:

I am going to force all non-HRE major nations into PUs

this include: Portugal, Castille, Aragon, Naples, Sicily, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Sweden, Denmark, Norway...and might be more that I have forgotten

I'm doing this as England, so will get my cores on France and Burgundy, Scotland as vassal.

I was thinking of starting with Portugal+Aragon, and then take Castille (their location makes them ideal as allies in PU wars, and hopefully would make taking Sweden, Naples, Denmark, Norway, Sicily and Hungary a lot easier and faster.

Then once I have hungary, get Poland and Lithuania.

Was thinking of doing this in perhaps the first 10-20 years. (Usually got Ireland and Scotland done by 1401), France I will wait with until I got my PU-allies.

What should I think of when doing all this?

I'm never going to maintain more than one royal marriage (that is broken right once the PU is entered?)

 

[Lord Curlyton]

Why only one RM at a time? Then you're reliant on the single RM target getting a low legitimacy heir so you can claim throne or you use fabricate claims a lot (which I presume is your plan). Personally I'd spam RMs, since if you can inherit the potential colonizers early = less land to deal with and less non-Holy War targets. Also, do you plan on forming HRE as well? One would imagine this is your plan as well...
My personal PU experiences: always make sure your army is nicely larger than theirs, or you get spammed with insults. You MUST be at peace as well as your PU, so avoid alliances if possible. And of course, the usual: large SoI + high diplo heir. I don't know if a Queen can inherit but I'm fairly certain only males can inherit.
EDIT: And since your ruler becomes ruler of both nations, then yes, no more RM with said nation.

 

[Chronicler]

Why only one RM at a time? Then you're reliant on the single RM target getting a low legitimacy heir so you can claim throne or you use fabricate claims a lot (which I presume is your plan). Personally I'd spam RMs, since if you can inherit the potential colonizers early = less land to deal with and less non-Holy War targets. Also, do you plan on forming HRE as well? One would imagine this is your plan as well...
My personal PU experiences: always make sure your army is nicely larger than theirs, or you get spammed with insults. You MUST be at peace as well as your PU, so avoid alliances if possible. And of course, the usual: large SoI + high diplo heir. I don't know if a Queen can inherit but I'm fairly certain only males can inherit.
EDIT: And since your ruler becomes ruler of both nations, then yes, no more RM with said nation.

Well, if anyone has low leg etc.

and I form a royal marriage with them, I do always seem to be able to claim throne right away, so I would be forming the RM just before the war declaration. If I got many RMs, I lose a lot of relations, and I wouldn't like that.

 

[Xeorm]

The RM is not broken with PU, so each of your PU's will take a hit everytime you claim a new throne until your current king dies.

I would think that Aragon is a good idea to start. After the starting time though, it's often the lack of any major country having a claimable heir that determines who to hit next.

Otherwise, focus on getting legitimacy and money for gifts. And be very careful with keeping your military up, otherwise your PU's will insult.

Also try not to get into any of the HRE until you can get in to get free cores.

 

[Magnive]

Or at least if you get a HRE in PU, be ready to remove the territories ASAP

Edit: Remove from the empire, that is

 

[Chronicler]

The RM is not broken with PU, so each of your PU's will take a hit everytime you claim a new throne until your current king dies.

I would think that Aragon is a good idea to start. After the starting time though, it's often the lack of any major country having a claimable heir that determines who to hit next.

Otherwise, focus on getting legitimacy and money for gifts. And be very careful with keeping your military up, otherwise your PU's will insult.

Also try not to get into any of the HRE until you can get in to get free cores.

I did think the RM was not broken. Suspected that...would make it hard to have many PUs yes, but with a large SOI it would only take 2 bribes to get it up again I guess.
Can one dissolve the RM safely? Or would that destroy the union?

 

[Lord Curlyton]

Well, if anyone has low leg etc.

and I form a royal marriage with them, I do always seem to be able to claim throne right away, so I would be forming the RM just before the war declaration. If I got many RMs, I lose a lot of relations, and I wouldn't like that.

Meh once you get the money flowing, gifts to restore relations are a drop in the hat.

 

[Pistachio101]

Dissolving a RM gives -1 stability and lowers relations with target country (and maybe other countries you have a RM with)

I guess its up to you on whether the stab hit is worth saving relations (though it might not be much saved if your other RM relations do take a hit).

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

It's likely to be tricky, but it could be worth trying. Don't forget the spy action that can give you a CB that leads to a PU as well.

Some people are likely to say it's a bit gamey, but hey, it's worth a shot to see how well it works. Your order could be difficult to do it in, since Castille can be quite powerful and resistant, depending on how committed to North Africa they feel in that particular game, and how badly they split their troops up. Obviously if they peace out easily and don't take any of Africa, then they'll be more difficult to deal with since all their troops will be in their home territory rather than split on two continents. It may not be easy, even with Portugal and Aragon on side.

You also potentially will have reputation/trust problems that may stop you getting any more RM (and thus PU) easily. If you can get away with it Muscovy (or whoever is taking over their "spot" on the map) could be worth your while, especially if you let them break free of the first PU you get them into, since "Restoration of PU" should let you force convert them as well. Obviously if BYZ do well you will want them as well.

Good luck with it. Just remember that when inheriting stuff that isn't in your culture set you won't get their cores, and there may be some rebels...

 

[Chronicler]

Dissolving a RM gives -1 stability and lowers relations with target country (and maybe other countries you have a RM with)

I guess its up to you on whether the stab hit is worth saving relations (though it might not be much saved if your other RM relations do take a hit).

but do the PU dissolve?

 

[Chronicler]

It's likely to be tricky, but it could be worth trying. Don't forget the spy action that can give you a CB that leads to a PU as well.

Some people are likely to say it's a bit gamey, but hey, it's worth a shot to see how well it works. Your order could be difficult to do it in, since Castille can be quite powerful and resistant, depending on how committed to North Africa they feel in that particular game, and how badly they split their troops up. Obviously if they peace out easily and don't take any of Africa, then they'll be more difficult to deal with since all their troops will be in their home territory rather than split on two continents. It may not be easy, even with Portugal and Aragon on side.

You also potentially will have reputation/trust problems that may stop you getting any more RM (and thus PU) easily. If you can get away with it Muscovy (or whoever is taking over their "spot" on the map) could be worth your while, especially if you let them break free of the first PU you get them into, since "Restoration of PU" should let you force convert them as well. Obviously if BYZ do well you will want them as well.

Good luck with it. Just remember that when inheriting stuff that isn't in your culture set you won't get their cores, and there may be some rebels...

To me it always seems pretty easy, I crush their main armies with my army, portugal and aragon (and scotland) siege.

my vassal allies don't seem to carpet anymore though, did they remove that after just adding it >_>.

 

[Chronicler]

Don't I need the RM to inherit? :/, this is all very confusing.

EDIT: And how many nations can be integrated at the same time?

 

[Pistachio101]

but do the PU dissolve?

Oh ok, after a quick check in my Poland game it seems as if once in a personal union you are unable to break the royal marriage with your PU country.

Sorry for getting your hopes up

 

[Xeorm]

Don't I need the RM to inherit? :/, this is all very confusing.

EDIT: And how many nations can be integrated at the same time?

I'd guess it works the same as with vassals, you can integrate 5 at a time, but it will involve asking them all at once.

After you integrate, the time since the PU is started is reset, oddly enough, so you need to wait 50 years before being able to ask again.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

To me it always seems pretty easy, I crush their main armies with my army, portugal and aragon (and scotland) siege.

my vassal allies don't seem to carpet anymore though, did they remove that after just adding it >_>.

Like I say, it depends where they've managed to put their main armies.

 

[unmerged(70580)]

This is actually how I play as England, PU'ing everyone - takes me a fair bit longer than 20 years though Some of the countries on the list are PU'd by others (Denmark has a PU on Sweden & Norway, Poland has PU on Lithuania) so you have to PU first one, then wait for your own ruler to die before you can get a stab at the others. Also, there are some odd ones out there, Byzantium & Ethiopia are Orthodox, can make for nice distant PU allies.

(Current game, have PU'd Aragon, Austria, Brabant, Brandenburg, Brittany, Castille, Denmark, Flanders, Guyenne, Hungary, Norway, Poland, Savoy & Sweden, by 1440, plus occupy paris, clobber Scotland & Ireland, smack Portugal, grab a bit of Africa & the odd region here & there)

I'd recommend going for Castille first, as Castille dominates Iberia, whereas Aragon doesn't, quite. Plus, Aragon seems to recover legitimacy really quickly, whereas Castille gives you a bit more time. Before Claiming the Throne of Castille, make sure you have a bit more than 20 Prestige more than Castille though, otherwise you'll Claim Throne & lose the claim before you can declare war. Also, try to get Navarra, despite the infamy, since having massive Castille as a PU without a land route to France can be a bit disappointing.

At game start, I'd say spam those RMs on everyone you suspect will be a PU target - very much those countries outside the HRE you listed, you do want to avoid war with the HRE for a bit. Lots of RMs at start means you've the RMs set up whilst your relations are generally decent with everyone ... relations will crash horribly once you start claiming thrones. The RMs will also help get your legitimacy back up quick, as well as providing the basis for the claims on thrones in the first place. At game start, you won't have the spies (nor a great deal of cash) for Fab Claims, plus, sometimes you have a Claim Throne opportunity, when you don't have Fab Claims.

Don't neglect your other wars, especially against France, you need plenty of Occupy Paris cores to support a big army.

But, do try to be Papal Controller by keeping Infamy way down - well under 6 points if you can. Being Papal Controller when claiming thrones saves a lot of stability hits ... you can claim the throne, cancel RM, & still declare war.

If you have the troops, do have more than one PU war on the go at the same time, just don't end more than one at the same time. The worst thing you can have happen is you make peace, then your ruler dies before you can gift relations to plus 0.

Ideally, you want to Claim Throne on one nation, then next day force a PU on another, to recover the Prestige, when you are Claiming Thrones, at least, Fab Claims a bit later on is much better, as othe have said.

Longer term, pray for a Regency Council & a heir with high diplomacy The big benefit of a regency council is it's the one time you can foresee the actual date your heir will stand a chance of inheriting. So, make sure you're at peace on that date, & get relations up as high as possible, with all PU nations. Also, one lesser factor re inheritance is thought to be trust ... so try to never dishonour a CTA.

Other than that, just cross your fingers & hope that your king dies whilst you're at peace. Oh, & do remember you will get 1 point of Infamy for every region you inherit as England - no same culture freebies as England - not that there's a great deal to be done about that.

 

[londoner247]

The leftover RM after forcing a union is probably a bug as it doesn't make much sense for you to be married to yourself. To get round it, once you have the PU CB (either from claiming the throne or fabricating documents) I believe you can dissolve the RM (taking the stab hit unless you are the Papal Controller) before declaring war so that when you do enforce the union you won't have the game thinking that you still have a marriage that you don't really have.

As others have said, if you inherit the other country then you will get cores if it is in your culture group (so you would need to culture shift to Cosmopolitaine to get cores on all French provinces, for example, unless you were talking about getting your own cores as England from the Occupy Paris mission). If you force them to integrate then you don't get the cores and so don't get all the buildings so, for anything in your culture group, never force integrate them.

Bear in mind that if you are at peace when your ruler dies and you have negative relations with any PU partners the PU will end. Best solution to this is to never be at peace (or at least never make peace) unless you are sure of your relationships. If you have positive relations and a high diplo heir then you will inherit all PU partners at once. This can actually be a problem for you because once you inherit their armies and navies disappear (so you lose your enormous allied military) and, even though they must have liked you enough to agree to an inheritance, they will spawn lots of nationalist rebels that you will need to put down. This can be particularly awkward if you inherit someone who has a large colonial empire because you will suddenly need to position ships and troops all over the world - ship and troops that you didn't have before because your force limits were too low or that you had committed to your own wars because you were leaving your PU partner to colonise the Americas and you were ignoring it completely.

 

[Chronicler]

What's a CTA?

When I inherit they keep the buildings right? And they don't keep them if I integrate? Strange, they do keep if I diplo-annex.

 

[Lord Curlyton]

CTA = Call To Arms
And you only keep buildings if you get a core on their lands from inherit. Diplo-annex/integrate usually doesn't keep buildings (again, core needs to be there). Try a test: as Austria, vassalize Bavaria then diplo-annex vs PU and inherit. You won't get cores from annex but WILL from PU inherit.

 

[Chronicler]

CTA = Call To Arms
And you only keep buildings if you get a core on their lands from inherit. Diplo-annex/integrate usually doesn't keep buildings (again, core needs to be there). Try a test: as Austria, vassalize Bavaria then diplo-annex vs PU and inherit. You won't get cores from annex but WILL from PU inherit.

That's strange, I was sure I tested it in my latest England game, and demanded annex on my vassals, and all kept buildings (not my culture)