Confucian Bonuses in the Beta

[Aelisa]

DISCLAIMER: Gathering the following bonuses is going to take a great deal of time, effort, and strategy, so please don't start calling for nerfs or claiming that Confucian is now meta or even as good as the likes of Orthodox, Sunni, or Catholic, because it really isn't, but it also isn't trash tier anymore. I, for one, look forward to some Confucian playthroughs (Korea, Ming, Mughals).

This is Confucian in the beta:
Confucian: +2 Tolerance of Heretics, -10% Administrative Technology Cost.
0 Harmony: +20% Stability Cost, +1 Yearly Corruption, -2 Yearly Meritocracy, -1 Yearly Legitimacy (previously: -3 Tolerance of the True Faith, +25% Development Cost, -2 Yearly Meritocracy, -1 Yearly Legitimacy).
100 Harmony: -10% Development Cost, +3 Tolerance of the True Faith, -0.50 Yearly Corruption, +1 Yearly Meritocracy, +50% Religious Harmonization Speed (previously: +1 Tolerance of the True Faith).

Harmony increases: +0.25 baseline (previously: +1), +1 at 100% Religious Unity (previously nothing), +/-0.25 from +/- 1 Stability (Previously only from positive Stability), +0.25 Humanist Ideas (unchanged), +0.25 Clerical Ministers (Estate privilege, unchanged), +0.50 Temple of Confucius, Imperial City of Hue (unchanged). All this adds up to a possible (but unlikely) +3.50 Harmony per year.
Harmonizing a religion now costs +3.25 Harmony per year (up from +3, although the tooltip doesn't reflect this in the beta).

The harmonized religion bonuses are as follows:
Christian group: -10% stability cost (previously -5%).
Dharmic group: +1 diplomatic reputation (previously +1 tolerance of the true faith).
Muslim group: +10% trade efficiency (previously 5%).
Pagan group: -1 national unrest (previously 0.5).
Shinto: 10% infantry combat ability (previously 5%).
Mahayana: -10% idea cost (previously 7%).
Theravada: -10% advisor cost (previously 5%).
Vajrayana: +10% production efficiency (previously 5%).
Judaism: +15 institution spread (unchanged).
Zoroastrianism: +10% goods produced (previously +10% trade efficiency).

Furthermore, Confucian now has access to all Eastern religion monuments as long as they are harmonized with the religion in question (Angkor Wat, Bagan Temples, Borobudur Temple, Buddha Statues, Ellora Caves, Erdene Zuu, Hampi, Jokhang Temple, Mount Fuji, Shwedagon Pagoda, Swayambhunath). While some of these are borderline useless (like the +1/2 missionaries from some of them), others are a great help once upgraded. Much like Buddhists, Confucian countries now have access to -50% Cultural Conversion Cost through monuments for example (since a few patches ago, it's possible to culture convert harmonized religions' provinces), so Ming One Culture might be fun to do (especially since it is possible to avoid the Ming disaster as a player and accrue all Celestial Reforms before the Age of Absolutism in the Beta, including the new one that lets you vassalize tributaries.

Lastly, Yanzhou is now a religious center for Confucian (-5 Local Missionary Strength, as well as +0.25 Yearly Harmony, +0.25 Yearly Prestige, and +25% Religious Unity if Leviathan is disabled and monuments unavailable).

Overall, I think these bonuses make arguably the most unique religion in the game a great deal more viable and fun.

 

[Reman]

The buffs themselves weren't that significant, although they'll probably do a lot to change people's perception of Confucian. The added unrest and corruption reduction are great, but it, along with all Eastern/Pagan denominations, have been quite strong ever since the EoC got buffed to where it was no longer a poison pill. The 20% CCR has always been very significant, and makes it a way better choice than stuff like Ortho/Catholic for normal (i.e. non-horde, non-HRE) gameplay. If anything, Confucian arguably got slightly weaker in comparison over the past few patches now that Hindus have 25% CCR and are close enough to where something like Hindu EoC Mughals are doable without much disruption.

Still glad to see it get some love. Confucian has been the best Eastern denomination for a while, and I think we're on the verge of more people recognizing that now.

 

[currylambchop]

Dharmic only gave 1 tolerance of the true faith before

 

[Aelisa]

Dharmic only gave 1 tolerance of the true faith before

Fixed. Sorry.

 

[Aelisa]

The buffs themselves weren't that significant, although they'll probably do a lot to change people's perception of Confucian. The added unrest and corruption reduction are great, but it, along with all Eastern/Pagan denominations, have been quite strong ever since the EoC got buffed to where it was no longer a poison pill. The 20% CCR has always been very significant, and makes it a way better choice than stuff like Ortho/Catholic for normal (i.e. non-horde, non-HRE) gameplay. If anything, Confucian arguably got slightly weaker in comparison over the past few patches now that Hindus have 25% CCR and are close enough to where something like Hindu EoC Mughals are doable without much disruption.

Still glad to see it get some love. Confucian has been the best Eastern denomination for a while, and I think we're on the verge of more people recognizing that now.

I definitely agree, though I feel there is a distinction to be made between the EoC mechanics (which have felt pretty powerful for a few patches now) and Confucian, which did feel very weak as far as religions went. My problem with it were stability issues and harmonization taking a long time for very little gain. I still enjoyed Confucian, though, unlike many people. With these changes, you'll get more National Unrest reduction and Tolerance of the True Faith, as well as just some really spicy bonuses in general (10% Goods Produced from Zoroastrianism is just neat).

 

[Reman]

I definitely agree, though I feel there is a distinction to be made between the EoC mechanics (which have felt pretty powerful for a few patches now) and Confucian, which did feel very weak as far as religions went. My problem with it were stability issues and harmonization taking a long time for very little gain. I still enjoyed Confucian, though, unlike many people. With these changes, you'll get more National Unrest reduction and Tolerance of the True Faith, as well as just some really spicy bonuses in general (10% Goods Produced from Zoroastrianism is just neat).

The main draw of Confucian, besides the easy access to EoC, has always been unrest reduction. Particularly in how you can use ToTF instead of heathen tolerance for rapid conquest, which effectively gives Confucian something like ~5 more unrest reduction than standard religions. This lets you take 100% more OE per coring cycle, which is pretty huge. The trivial bonuses it gives for harmonizing religions were never a central draw, and the problem of how long it takes to harmonize was *vastly* overstated.

Typical posts regarding Confucian before this patch were something like: "Confucian is F-tier because it takes until the late 1600s to harmonize all religions, and even then you're only getting bonuses like 5% infantry combat ability", which is just the complete wrong way to look at what the religion gives you. Now the people saying stuff like this will probably change their opinion of Confucian to correctly rate it much better, but for the wrong reasons. I hope by trying it out they'll start to realize where the true power comes from.

 

[Romanix90]

Confucianism, imo, isn't bad religion its effects are bad, until now of course. And it's exactly how you describe it. You put a lot of effort to harmonize some religions and once it's complete you get very veak effects. Next to it is that harmonization is long process. Like it takes you 30 +/- years (there are some events that decrease the hole process). And also unlike other religions Confucianism discourages players to ever use missionaries. I've made several proposals on how Confucianism can be interesting religion.

1. Make Confucian nation harmonize each religion separatly. Example : when you harmonize Sunni you automathicaly harmonized entire Islamic denomination. My proposal was to make each religion being able to harmonize separatly, like you can do with Buddhists.

2. Make some use of missionaries. Since you can't use missionaries in a traditional way why not make use of them in a different way. For example you could use missionary to promoter harmony gain (better developed province the better) or to spead up harmonization (again better developed province is you're harmonizing the faster harmonization is). This could make player to pick up Religious idea besides Humanist.

 

[BlazeKnight_]

Confucian buff is better than nothing, I guess (even if the whole harmonization mechanic is a little strange historically).

It at least isn't complete garbage anymore, looking at it from modifiers perspective. Although, its still bad in MPs, because lone 10% ICA is horrendous and it doesn't really provide enough power cost modifiers to justify not having any other mil bonuses (not even manpower).

Really all the buff did is strengthen Confucian's main draw as a mass blobbing religion. The +3 Tolerance Own from 100 harmony is the main pusher. I think that's fine, because it finally gave Confucian a good identity. Old Confucian was a horrible religion outside of mass expansion SP, where most people regarded it as "okay-ish." Now, it looks like a pretty good blobbing religion, although I haven't tested it myself because I can't stand playing vanilla.

 

[Alexios Fan]

Confucianism is very contradictory, which is one of the reasons I hate it. First, because of harmony, Confucianism cannot be changed on a large scale. As you harmonize with other religions, you will rely on tolerance to reduce rebellion. When you integrate religion, you rely on True Faith Tolerance, which is very paradoxical. Secondly, you have to consider whether you want to harmonize with other religions as early as possible. If you harmonize with other religions very early, you can reduce a lot of rebellion (the difficulty of increasing True Faith Tolerance is much lower than the other two tolerations, and True Faith has no upper limit), and you can also use the great project of other religions, but, You will no longer be able to use religious ideas cb - this is the most effective means of early expansion.If you harmonize them very late, you can't use grand projects and harmony's buffs. In addition, it must be recognized that the level of religions that can be preached is far higher than those that can only be tolerated. Just like before 1.31, almost everyone was more willing to use Coptic rather than Hinduism, even if the number of Coptic provinces was far less than Hinduism. This is because true faith can hardly be lower than zero, while the other two tolerance can not be higher than 3.

 

[UmbrellaWork]

Since Confucianism cannot preach, I have an idea, it is better to disable the preaching function of Confucianism, and EoC locks the primary culture as the Chinese culture group, and cannot accept non-Chinese culture. However, after coring the top five development provinces with unaccepted cultures , you can send missionaries to "教化" them in order to accept the culture.

 

[BlazeKnight_]

Since Confucianism cannot preach, I have an idea, it is better to disable the preaching function of Confucianism, and EoC locks the primary culture as the Chinese culture group, and cannot accept non-Chinese culture. However, after coring the top five development provinces with unaccepted cultures , you can send missionaries to "教化" them in order to accept the culture.

so, your solution is to nerf Confucian, or nerf the EoC.

.........why? Also, Confucian is a religion... not tied to the EoC. So in all ways this doesn't work or is a bad game feature.

 

[currylambchop]

so, your solution is to nerf Confucian, or nerf the EoC.

.........why? Also, Confucian is a religion... not tied to the EoC. So in all ways this doesn't work or is a bad game feature.

Or maybe you can culture convert with missionaries as Confucian instead