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Deathwatch

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While the notion to change SR and Coalition are good, I hope that Paradox tweak the numbers correctly. SR makes fighting against blobs become very difficult, because the blob army could retreat at high speed, and you lose the advantage of smart positioning or surprises.
 
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riadach

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The problem I found with SR is moral recovers far too quickly meaning they're ready for battle again in a week or so. If that is sorted it will be a good system.

If you really want to improve the chances of smaller kingdoms against larger kingdomd though an ambush system may be required.

I'd suggest combining difficult terrain with forts for that issue. In hilly, wooded, mountainous or marshy regions, fortifications should take on a different role, massively slowing down movement speed and increasing attrition. This should especially be the case if the levies for that county are "unraised". If an army attacks an enemy while it goes through such ambush territories it should get major flanking bonuses especially with a difficult terrain master. Fortification buildings should increase attrition or slow movement further or make enemies more vulnerable , such as build lookouts, ditches, plash woods, barricades, murderholes etc etc. Such fortifications should only be dismantled when the other holdings have been sieged down.
 
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Alfy

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I'm really wondering if tinkering with the coalition numbers will sort anything out.

The fundamental reason why blobbing is such an issue is because the ai is incapable of providing a proper challenge to a human player who min/maxes. Now I understand coding an ai is tough, especially as our rigs have to simulate every single realm but our own, so instead we get the illusion that the ai is playing the same game as we do while It is actually following simpler rules to make it look believable. Ok.

So Paradox implements a new mechanic that is strongly geared against the blobbing human player, effectively giving the ai an advantage. But because CKII is based on history, what would work great in other games fails to please a large number of players here (myself included). So the mechanic now gets toned down and tinkered with.

Now, I can't prove this, but I'm fairly sure that once it gets toned down enough so that players who care about the historical setting are - relatively - happy, it won't do enough to provide much of a challenge to those who like to paint maps.

I get it that I will never see the ai I wish this game had. But if the challenge against blobbing can't come from the ai, either because it can't be made good enough or because enough players are displeased when the ai gets gamey mechanics, than it has to come from elsewhere. Many people - including, again, myself - have argued the challenge should come from the difficulty of managing a large empire. I would point out that this also requires the ai to get an upgrade to some extent: too often do rebellions in my realm fail because they were poorly timed, or because I kicked the rebels foundation on the battlefield with too much ease.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know coalitions is not it (although we are probably stuck with them for ever now, alas).

Maybe it is time to accept that this game is not meant to provide a proper challenge to those who refuse to RP, or inversely, accept that this game needs to strongly depart from its historical setting to become a challenging strategy game with some historical flavor. Maybe it is time to review some of the fundamentals and somehow try to find a way to fund an overhaul of some of the basics, including at least some parts of the ai. Maybe it is time for CKIII.

And maybe I am making too big a deal of these changes. But as far as I am concerned, I would like Paradox to make a clear decision as to where they are taking this game, because the latest design decisions got me really worried.
 
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TheKingofWinter

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The problem I found with SR is moral recovers far too quickly meaning they're ready for battle again in a week or so. If that is sorted it will be a good system.

If you really want to improve the chances of smaller kingdoms against larger kingdomd though an ambush system may be required.

I'd suggest combining difficult terrain with forts for that issue. In hilly, wooded, mountainous or marshy regions, fortifications should take on a different role, massively slowing down movement speed and increasing attrition. This should especially be the case if the levies for that county are "unraised". If an army attacks an enemy while it goes through such ambush territories it should get major flanking bonuses especially with a difficult terrain master. Fortification buildings should increase attrition or slow movement further or make enemies more vulnerable , such as build lookouts, ditches, plash woods, barricades, murderholes etc etc. Such fortifications should only be dismantled when the other holdings have been sieged down.
cause that wouldnt make the already loud complaint about SR turning wars that should be over in weeks take months even worse.

also, i personally loved the Fort system in EU4, but 1. without massively restructuring siege mechanics, it wouldnt work and 2. as much as i loved it, the actual reason it was introduced was to make the shitty mechanic of SR work in that game. which is not an a good reason to introduce to CK2 a mechanic that most people are also be against.
 

riadach

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cause that wouldnt make the already loud complaint about SR turning wars that should be over in weeks take months even worse.

What wars should be over in weeks? I can't think of any historical war which lead to the annexation of something the size of a CK2 county, being over in a few weeks.

also, i personally loved the Fort system in EU4, but 1. without massively restructuring siege mechanics, it wouldnt work and 2. as much as i loved it, the actual reason it was introduced was to make the shitty mechanic of SR work in that game. which is not an a good reason to introduce to CK2 a mechanic that most people are also be against.

But it's a movement penalty, not a block. In certain territory, fortifications stop armies from moving quickly through their provinces which is what historically happened.
 
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TheKingofWinter

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What wars should be over in weeks? I can't think of any historical war which lead to the annexation of something the size of a CK2 county, being over in a few weeks.



But it's a movement penalty, not a block. In certain territory, fortifications stop armies from moving quickly through their provinces which is what historically happened.
a war for a duchy or county can take years now, due to SR. Also, the norman invasion of england was over in less than two months. this was due to them winning a single decisive battle against the english(the battle of hastings) in which they crushed the enemy army, killed the king as well as his heirs. No SR, or long sieges in sight.

also, again, this will only increase the problem of SR arbitrarily slowing down the amounts of time that wars take. also from a historical perspective, wars for kingdoms could last extremely short as well as extremely long times. this was in large part due to how armies simply broke once defeated, making it very easy to win a decisive victory very early into the war. sometimes it was the opposite, sieges taking very long times. but we had both of those things before SR was introduced, very decisive battles, alongside long sieges that could take years.
 

BrokenSky

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a war for a duchy or county can take years now, due to SR. Also, the norman invasion of england was over in less than two months. this was due to them winning a single decisive battle against the english(the battle of hastings) in which they crushed the enemy army, killed the king as well as his heirs. No SR, or long sieges in sight.

also, again, this will only increase the problem of SR arbitrarily slowing down the amounts of time that wars take. also from a historical perspective, wars for kingdoms could last extremely short as well as extremely long times. this was in large part due to how armies simply broke once defeated, making it very easy to win a decisive victory very early into the war. sometimes it was the opposite, sieges taking very long times. but we had both of those things before SR was introduced, very decisive battles, alongside long sieges that could take years.

To be fair though for that to happen in game we'd need higher death chance for people fighting in battle, as well as gaining war-score from killing the person you're at war with. Which we should totally have.
 
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TheKingofWinter

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To be fair though for that to happen in game we'd need higher death chance for people fighting in battle, as well as gaining war-score from killing the person you're at war with. Which we should totally have.
agreed, though personally idd have made it so that the chances of capturing enemy commanders once they lose as well. there are so many ways to improve the combat system without introducing mechanics like SR. higher death chance and capture chance for the losing side, more complex and usefull retinue, a better system for the actual combat system, naval battles, etc. i think thats another reason so many hated SR, cause it was them being lazy and importing a system fromEU4 that no one asked for, rather than actually doing one of the many things fans actually did suggest or asked for.
 
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riadach

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a war for a duchy or county can take years now, due to SR. Also, the norman invasion of england was over in less than two months. this was due to them winning a single decisive battle against the english(the battle of hastings) in which they crushed the enemy army, killed the king as well as his heirs. No SR, or long sieges in sight.

Not completely accurate, the resistance continued for two years after. How much more difficult would William's job have been had Harold not been killed?


also, again, this will only increase the problem of SR arbitrarily slowing down the amounts of time that wars take. also from a historical perspective, wars for kingdoms could last extremely short as well as extremely long times. this was in large part due to how armies simply broke once defeated, making it very easy to win a decisive victory very early into the war. sometimes it was the opposite, sieges taking very long times. but we had both of those things before SR was introduced, very decisive battles, alongside long sieges that could take years.

You're making historical generalisations which simply aren't true. Armies didn't just simply break up, many could fight and flee and fight again. Such hit and run tactics characterised the fighting styles of many different groups especially when they were outmatched in numbers though the terrain was in their favour. It's simply untrue to claim that a loss in battle automatically lead to the destruction of the losing army.

The system I suggested would not be arbitrary. It would function as it should. Slowing down enemies giving one the internal lines which would help you defeat armies in detail or give you enough time to reinforce weaker armies That would remove the automatic and arbitrary win-button that larger armies now get and stop wars being just smash and grab.
 
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TheKingofWinter

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Not completely accurate, the resistance continued for two years after. How much more difficult would William's job have been had Harold not been killed?




You're making historical generalisations which simply aren't true. Armies didn't just simply break up, many could fight and flee and fight again. Such hit and run tactics characterised the fighting styles of many different groups especially when they were outmatched in numbers though the terrain was in their favour. It's simply untrue to claim that a loss in battle automatically lead to the destruction of the losing army.
Rebellion and wars are two completely different things. so he faced rebellions after winning the throne, what off it? or are you suggesting that revolts and rebellions dont currently happen in CK? cause if you are, go conquer england as harald or william, refuse to convert to anglo-saxon culture, and try going two generations without a peasant revolt, noble revolt or a liberation army. also, so what if harold had survived? my point was that wars could be won very quickly, as proven by the battle of hastings. your argument was that there was no medival wars for whole kingdoms that only lasted a few weeks, which i disproved by the norman invasion of england. wheter it could have gone differently is of little consequnce here, william won, and he did so in less than two months.

Yes they did, once medieval armies lost they almost always broke. what you and so many others who defend SR are doing is confusing levy based armies with those of proffessional standing armies. levies were farmers that by law were bound to answer their count/duke/king/emperor when said ruler called them for war. the entire point of the system was to create a system where the young male population could spend most of their time farming, but also be called together relatively quickly to create massive armies. thus the levy were the foot soliders of medieval armies, the bulk of their armies were levy soliders. but levy soliders arent proffessional soliders, they had only the bare minimum training with their weapons, they had absolutely no mental training to deal with the stress of combat, in case of christian soliders, most of them probably felt genuinly fear of being killed and going to hell for killing others. none of them wanted to be there, they wanted to be home with their wives and children, not on a battlefield fighting a fight they hadnt volluntered for, fighting an enemy they probably didnt know anything about, and fighting for a king/emperor they didnt know. thus when an army lost, they broke, men desserted in the night as the men that composed the bulk of the army basicly said "screw this im going home". true, there were men who stayed with the king, the actual proffessional soliders(be they kinghts, housekarls, hussars or others) but the main part of the army was gone. and once that army was gone, getting them back together again was something that took years. when the french lost the battle of agnicourt, they still had 20k men, outnumbering the english by over 2-1, but the army was gone, the levies broke, and desserted in mass. and it took generations for the french to recover from that fiasco and raise a new army to challenge the englsih. and yes, this generally also happened when the retreat was ordered. the levies needed a sense of victory if they were to stay an army, and if that was instead given a sense of complete loss, they broke.

mind you, there were some places where this didnt apply, the byzantine empire for example, never really became a feudal society in the same way their western neighboors did. they did have a proffessional standing army, and even their levy system(know as the Theme system) was far more advanced and generally produced much better soliders than any of their western or muslim counterparts. and then there was the steppe hordes like the mongols, who also had a proffessional army and didnt rely on a levy sytem at all. but most societies in the medival world, did rely on levy systems, the muslims did, the europeans did, north africa did. proffessional soliders as the standard didnt start becoming a thing again until King Karl the eight of sweden proved how much better such an army was compared to levies. and until then, a tactical retreat was something only done by mercenaries.

edit* here's a speech from george r r martins a song of ice and fire that gives a look into the mind of a levy
 
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Many people - including, again, myself - have argued the challenge should come from the difficulty of managing a large empire.

Agreed. Looking at history, the common pattern is Expansion --> Stabilization (possibly with some expansion) --> Decline (possibly with a few resurgences) --> Collapse/Rump state. Of course, sometimes a declininh empire will stabilize and enter the expansion phase again, or an expanding empire will decline quickly (such as Alexander the Great's empire), but the general pattern still holds. A strong ruler who deals with any internal discontent should be able to expand (assuming there is a suitable target), while a poor ruler inheriting from a great ruler should have difficulty to expand due to civil wars/unrest.

Maybe it is time to accept that this game is not meant to provide a proper challenge to those who refuse to RP, or inversely, accept that this game needs to strongly depart from its historical setting to become a challenging strategy game with some historical flavor.

This is very true. Someone who RPs their ruler to a great extent will be willing to restrict their actions based on their traits even if that isn't optimal (though how pragmatic they are willing to be might differ) and is probably less likely to support mechanics that make little sense from a roleplaying perspective, while someone who refuses to roleplay is unlikely to want their actions to be more restricted by traits (and won't do this on their own). The only way to restrict a non-RP player is with artificial limitations that they may or may not like and that the RP players are unlikely to like if they don't make sense from an RP perspective.
 
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Maybe it is time to accept that this game is not meant to provide a proper challenge to those who refuse to RP, or inversely, accept that this game needs to strongly depart from its historical setting to become a challenging strategy game with some historical flavor. Maybe it is time to review some of the fundamentals and somehow try to find a way to fund an overhaul of some of the basics, including at least some parts of the ai. Maybe it is time for CKIII.

And maybe I am making too big a deal of these changes. But as far as I am concerned, I would like Paradox to make a clear decision as to where they are taking this game, because the latest design decisions got me really worried.

Honestly? I wish that CK2 stayed more of a game that you RP your ruler and your dynasty and the people wanting a strategy game with historical flavor could play EU4. I mean, that's what EU has almost always been and what it's been moved even further towards with EU4 and Wiz in charge.

That also leaves Vicky games to be more about population, ideology, resource, and economic management (and not just WAR WAR WAR) and HoI to be the "real", getting stuck in it, war game. Keep the franchises separate, instead of making all 4 extraordinarily similar.
 
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Rebellion and wars are two completely different things. so he faced rebellions after winning the throne, what off it? or are you suggesting that revolts and rebellions dont currently happen in CK? cause if you are, go conquer england as harald or william, refuse to convert to anglo-saxon culture, and try going two generations without a peasant revolt, noble revolt or a liberation army. also, so what if harold had survived? my point was that wars could be won very quickly, as proven by the battle of hastings. your argument was that there was no medival wars for whole kingdoms that only lasted a few weeks, which i disproved by the norman invasion of england. wheter it could have gone differently is of little consequnce here, william won, and he did so in less than two months.

Because he couldn't impose his settlement until after those rebellions were suppressed. We don't have such a system in CK2. If Harold had survived, it is very unlikely nobles would have submitted to William in October. There was still a valid leader to rally around after all.



Yes they did, once medieval armies lost they almost always broke. what you and so many others who defend SR are doing is confusing levy based armies with those of proffessional standing armies. levies were farmers that by law were bound to answer their count/duke/king/emperor when said ruler called them for war. the entire point of the system was to create a system where the young male population could spend most of their time farming, but also be called together relatively quickly to create massive armies. thus the levy were the foot soliders of medieval armies, the bulk of their armies were levy soliders. but levy soliders arent proffessional soliders, they had only the bare minimum training with their weapons, they had absolutely no mental training to deal with the stress of combat, in case of christian soliders, most of them probably felt genuinly fear of being killed and going to hell for killing others. none of them wanted to be there, they wanted to be home with their wives and children, not on a battlefield fighting a fight they hadnt volluntered for, fighting an enemy they probably didnt know anything about, and fighting for a king/emperor they didnt know. thus when an army lost, they broke, men desserted in the night as the men that composed the bulk of the army basicly said "screw this im going home". true, there were men who stayed with the king, the actual proffessional soliders(be they kinghts, housekarls, hussars or others) but the main part of the army was gone. and once that army was gone, getting them back together again was something that took years. when the french lost the battle of agnicourt, they still had 20k men, outnumbering the english by over 2-1, but the army was gone, the levies broke, and desserted in mass. and it took generations for the french to recover from that fiasco and raise a new army to challenge the englsih. and yes, this generally also happened when the retreat was ordered. the levies needed a sense of victory if they were to stay an army, and if that was instead given a sense of complete loss, they broke.

No, I'm not. You seem to think that because they weren't professional they could not suffer the consequences of abandoning their lord. If they wanted to return home to their family and children, if they wanted to ensure that their homes were still there, they had to do, to the best of their as their lord commands. If that meant reassembling elsewhere, then that's exactly what they would have done. Indeed, finding out where the main army was and reassembling, rather than run home long distances to their families, was their best chance of survival.


mind you, there were some places where this didnt apply, the byzantine empire for example, never really became a feudal society in the same way their western neighboors did. they did have a proffessional standing army, and even their levy system(know as the Theme system) was far more advanced and generally produced much better soliders than any of their western or muslim counterparts. and then there was the steppe hordes like the mongols, who also had a proffessional army and didnt rely on a levy sytem at all. but most societies in the medival world, did rely on levy systems, the muslims did, the europeans did, north africa did. proffessional soliders as the standard didnt start becoming a thing again until King Karl the eight of sweden proved how much better such an army was compared to levies. and until then, a tactical retreat was something only done by mercenaries.

edit* here's a speech from george r r martins a song of ice and fire that gives a look into the mind of a levy

Yeah, I'm not convinced you have the historical understanding to debate this.
 
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Because he couldn't impose his settlement until after those rebellions were suppressed. We don't have such a system in CK2. If Harold had survived, it is very unlikely nobles would have submitted to William in October. There was still a valid leader to rally around after all.





No, I'm not. You seem to think that because they weren't professional they could not suffer the consequences of abandoning their lord. If they wanted to return home to their family and children, if they wanted to ensure that their homes were still there, they had to do, to the best of their as their lord commands. If that meant reassembling elsewhere, then that's exactly what they would have done. Indeed, finding out where the main army was and reassembling, rather than run home long distances to their families, was their best chance of survival.




Yeah, I'm not convinced you have the historical understanding to debate this.
How is SR going to help with changing the system to be more like that? in your counter argument, you 1. fail to list any actual counter argument against the war itself bein over on less than two months, and 2. you havent given any reasons for why Keping SR would help with this.

Did i claim that Desserting men werent hanged if they were caught? cause they were, they more often than not simply took that chance. they also had another option, banditry. when men couldnt get back home, they still had to eat to survive, so they often became outlaws, killing and stealing to survive. one of the main reason why france during the hundred years war was so often plagued with banditry was that levies that couldnt get home, chose to become outlaws to survive. they still generally chose not to keep following their leaders and instead dessert. also, do you have any idea how hard it was to prevent an army from desserting? cause it was really freaking hard to prevent your own men from simply leaving in the night, what do you do when 2k men slips away in the night? will capturing 50 or even 100 men bring back the rest of the army that left? of course it wouldnt. as i said, you are confusing the discipline of proffessional armies with that of levy soliders. you are completely correct in noting that staying with the main army was often their better choice if they wanted to get back home. most levies still chose other choices.

also, by all means feel free to point out holes in my historical understanding. idd love to hear what they are.
 
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How is SR going to help with changing the system to be more like that? in your counter argument, you 1. fail to list any actual counter argument against the war itself bein over on less than two months, and 2. you havent given any reasons for why Keping SR would help with this.

The only example you gave for a quick war was 1066, and I demonstrated to you why that was an exceptional occurence. What else do I need to show? I could show wars of the kings of opposition in Ireland which went on for decades. Or how the annalist at Móin Mór praised the victor because only one of the enemy's three battalions came out alive. Those armies were far from professional, yet the annalist assumed that at least half of an defeated party's army would make it out alive.



Did i claim that Desserting men werent hanged if they were caught? cause they were, they more often than not simply took that chance. they also had another option, banditry. when men couldnt get back home, they still had to eat to survive, so they often became outlaws, killing and stealing to survive. one of the main reason why france during the hundred years war was so often plagued with banditry was that levies that couldnt get home, chose to become outlaws to survive. they still generally chose not to keep following their leaders and instead dessert. also, do you have any idea how hard it was to prevent an army from desserting? cause it was really freaking hard to prevent your own men from simply leaving in the night, what do you do when 2k men slips away in the night? will capturing 50 or even 100 men bring back the rest of the army that left? of course it wouldnt. as i said, you are confusing the discipline of proffessional armies with that of levy soliders. you are completely correct in noting that staying with the main army was often their better choice if they wanted to get back home. most levies still chose other choices.

They more often than not simply took that chance? As for banditry, you previously said they deserted it to get back to their families? Yet now you admit would they jeopardise their family's survival by deserting yet still wish to claim this was the most common occurence No, sorry your argument doesn't stack up. Maybe men were more likely to desert as a result of a defeat, but to stay that in general they broke is a gross simplification.

also, by all means feel free to point out holes in my historical understanding. idd love to hear what they are.

You make unsupported generalisations and refer to few facts. The ones you do refer to you simplify to justify your arguments.
 
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The only example you gave for a quick war was 1066, and I demonstrated to you why that was an exceptional occurence. What else do I need to show? I could show wars of the kings of opposition in Ireland which went on for decades. Or how the annalist at Móin Mór praised the victor because only one of the enemy's three battalions came out alive. Those armies were far from professional, yet the annalist assumed that at least half of an defeated party's army would make it out alive.





They more often than not simply took that chance? As for banditry, you previously said they deserted it to get back to their families? Yet now you admit would they jeopardise their family's survival by deserting yet still wish to claim this was the most common occurence No, sorry your argument doesn't stack up. Maybe men were more likely to desert as a result of a defeat, but to stay that in general they broke is a gross simplification.



You make unsupported generalisations and refer to few facts. The ones you do refer to you simplify to justify your arguments.
have i claimed that 1066 was the standard for how wars went? you asked me for a war that lasted a few weeks and i delivered. if you want more, i can dig through the mongol conquests if youdd like. i can probably find quite a lot of short wars there. and there were undoubtedly others that lasted just as small amounts of time. and thats just wars fought for kingdoms, for an example of a small war lasting extremely short time, go look up Harald bluetooths war against the holy roman emperor, fought for control over the area around holstein.

"Why would they jeopardise their family's survival by deserting?" you seem to be under the impression that every single one of the troops had some persona stake in the matter. they didnt. oh sure, there were a lot of levies that did, that knew full well that if they broke their families might pay the price, and they WOULD fight harder as a result. but the majority of most armies did not fight with such convictions. if you were a peasant from ireland, and you were fighting an invading army that landed in middlesex or york, would you give a damn about the fact that if you lost, the enemy army would pillage england? of course you wouldnt. you also, seem to be under the impression that only defending armies broke. that wasnt the case at all. invading armies broke just as easily, if not even more so, after all they didnt have something to actually defend.
also, no they didnt take up banditry to get back to their families. they took up banditry to survive, when they discovered that they couldnt get manage to get back to their families. people will do quite a lot of cruel things if they have to chose either to do that or not survive.

"You make unsupported generalisations and refer to few if any historical facts." so in other words you'dd regard none of these as historical facts: the massive banditry in france during the 100 years war, that byzantium wasnt feudal, that the byzantines had a proffessional army, that the mongol had a proffessional army, that william won his invasion very quickly, that the french needed generations to recover from the loss at agnicourt even though 20k battle-able men were still alive. all of these were things that are not true then?
 
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have i claimed that 1066 was the standard for how wars went? you asked me for a war that lasted a few weeks and i delivered. if you want more, i can dig through the mongol conquests if youdd like. i can probably find quite a lot of short wars there. and there were undoubtedly others that lasted just as small amounts of time. and thats just wars fought for kingdoms, for an example of a small war lasting extremely short time, go look up Harald bluetooths war against the holy roman emperor, fought for control over the area around holstein.

But you didn't since the military element lasted three years. Even at that, it was exceptional that the leader of the opposing faction died on the day of battle.

Can you provide me with the link for Harold's war? How long do you think it took the Mongols to engage in their conquest





"Why would they jeopardise their family's survival by deserting?" you seem to be under the impression that every single one of the troops had some persona stake in the matter. they didnt. oh sure, there were a lot of levies that did, that knew full well that if they broke their families might pay the price, and they WOULD fight harder as a result. but the majority of most armies did not fight with such convictions. if you were a peasant from ireland, and you were fighting an invading army that landed in middlesex or york, would you give a damn about the fact that if you lost, the enemy army would pillage england? of course you wouldnt. you also, seem to be under the impression that only defending armies broke. that wasnt the case at all. invading armies broke just as easily, if not even more so, after all they didnt have something to actually defend.
also, no they didnt take up banditry to get back to their families. they took up banditry to survive, when they discovered that they couldnt get manage to get back to their families. people will do quite a lot of cruel things if they have to chose either to do that or not survive.

No, but you would give a damn about what your lord would do to you should you lose. That was my point. Not imagined personal stakes, but actual personal stakes.

"You make unsupported generalisations and refer to few if any historical facts." so in other words you'dd regard none of these as historical facts: the massive banditry in france during the 100 years war, that byzantium wasnt feudal, that the byzantines had a proffessional army, that the mongol had a proffessional army, that william won his invasion very quickly, that the french needed generations to recover from the loss at agnicourt even though 20k battle-able men were still alive. all of these were things that are not true then?

It may be a fact, but it's not a relevant one. And no, William won his battle against Harold quickly. England wasn't wholly secure for at least another decade.

As for Agincourt, again you're simplifying. Was the lack of recovery not more to do with who was lost. The knights after all were not solely a unique type of soldier, they were those who assembled and brought levies to battle. Naturally, recovery in such a scenario would much longer as the military leadership and organisational capacity was decimated.

But surely Agincourt demonstrates that even such decisive engagements did not end wars. You want a quick mappainting game, but that doesn't reflect the historical reality, the actual difficulties that armies had overcoming their enemies and that wars weren't just once-off battles, they were sieges, raids, ambushes, and depriving enemy's of their supplies.
 
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But you didn't since the military element lasted three years. Even at that, it was exceptional that the leader of the opposing faction died on the day of battle.

Can you provide me with the link for Harold's war? How long do you think it took the Mongols to engage in their conquest







No, but you would give a damn about what your lord would do to you should you lose. That was my point. Not imagined personal stakes, but actual personal stakes.



It may be a fact, but it's not a relevant one. And no, William won his battle against Harold quickly. England wasn't wholly secure for at least another decade.

As for Agincourt, again you're simplifying. Was the lack of recovery not more to do with who was lost. The knights after all were not solely a unique type of soldier, they were those who assembled and brought levies to battle. Naturally, recovery in such a scenario would much longer as the military leadership and organisational capacity was decimated.

But surely Agincourt demonstrates that even such decisive engagements did not end wars. You want a quick mappainting game, but that doesn't reflect the historical reality, the actual difficulties that armies had overcoming their enemies and that wars weren't just battles, they were sieges, raids, ambushes, and depriving enemy's of their supplies.
and how is that not represented in game? why, if you take title of king of england while leaving most of the original dukes where they are, you get this factor called "foreign conqueror" which makes it almost certain they will hate you. and more likely than not theyll rebel. how does SR add to that system?

its mentioned here under war with denmark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor all in all the war lasted from summer to the beginning of autumn.
as for how long the mongol conquests took, it varied, some did take years, as the mongols exterminated the population, but im willing to bet i can find several that only lasted a few months. also as for lenghts of wars, there's also the fact that levy armies in most cases couldnt fight with their full strenght for more than three months at a time, as if thet didnt get home before that, famine suddenly became much more likely. hence why wars spanning years werent commonplace.

what would he do? specifficly hunt you down once the war was over? do you honestly think that if the king lost the war, he spent the next months hunting down each and every desserter? cause he didnt, he had more important things to do than inflicting even more casualties on the men that worked his fields. for one thing, it wasnt that bloody easy to prove that someone was a desserter, not to mention that youdd have to execute thousands of people. which would never happen due to several factors.

what agnicourt does prove is that armies need a shit ton of time to get their shit together after a loss, even if they dont completely break. also, you seem to be under the impression that the nobility dying didnt happen all that often. well here's another example for you, when olav the holy of norway tried to reconquer his kingdom, he died at the battle of stiklestad, and what remained of his army was scattered like leaves in the wind. people die in wars, lowborn and nobility alike.there were many reasons men broke, ive gone over the main ones, but there were other reasons as well. the death of a king on the battlefield for example. could easily not only turn the battle itself, but was also practicly guaranteed that the army would break afterwards. and in the unusal cases, where it didnt break, it was generally due to having a leader of massive charisma holding the men together. The reason why SR simply will not work is that it tries to make it so that these rare cases, are the norm, rather than relatively few in numbers. also, you noted that medieval leaders knew that at least half enemy army would make it out alive. true enough. how is that a part of SR? SR makes it so that armies takes riidicously low losses in battle. half their numbers from a battle where you are on even numbers as the enemy? dream on. to actually make it so that losses would be realistic, would break the reason for why SR was introduced in the first place, which was to make it so that countries would be able to recover from a massive loss. also, how is bringing up the differences between proffessional armies and levy ones not relevant to this discussion? why is pointing out the massive numbers of bandits in france during this period as a result of desserting men not relevant?
 
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I'm really wondering if tinkering with the coalition numbers will sort anything out.

The fundamental reason why blobbing is such an issue is because the ai is incapable of providing a proper challenge to a human player who min/maxes. Now I understand coding an ai is tough, especially as our rigs have to simulate every single realm but our own, so instead we get the illusion that the ai is playing the same game as we do while It is actually following simpler rules to make it look believable. Ok.

So Paradox implements a new mechanic that is strongly geared against the blobbing human player, effectively giving the ai an advantage. But because CKII is based on history, what would work great in other games fails to please a large number of players here (myself included). So the mechanic now gets toned down and tinkered with.

Now, I can't prove this, but I'm fairly sure that once it gets toned down enough so that players who care about the historical setting are - relatively - happy, it won't do enough to provide much of a challenge to those who like to paint maps.

I get it that I will never see the ai I wish this game had. But if the challenge against blobbing can't come from the ai, either because it can't be made good enough or because enough players are displeased when the ai gets gamey mechanics, than it has to come from elsewhere. Many people - including, again, myself - have argued the challenge should come from the difficulty of managing a large empire. I would point out that this also requires the ai to get an upgrade to some extent: too often do rebellions in my realm fail because they were poorly timed, or because I kicked the rebels foundation on the battlefield with too much ease.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know coalitions is not it (although we are probably stuck with them for ever now, alas).

Maybe it is time to accept that this game is not meant to provide a proper challenge to those who refuse to RP, or inversely, accept that this game needs to strongly depart from its historical setting to become a challenging strategy game with some historical flavor. Maybe it is time to review some of the fundamentals and somehow try to find a way to fund an overhaul of some of the basics, including at least some parts of the ai. Maybe it is time for CKIII.

And maybe I am making too big a deal of these changes. But as far as I am concerned, I would like Paradox to make a clear decision as to where they are taking this game, because the latest design decisions got me really worried.

I agree, but the beauty of Paradox games is the assymetric difficulty levels. Playing as the Umayyads is easy mode. Playing as a Zoroastrian count is super hard mode. The AI doesn't need to be perfect to allow players to be challenged -- they can choose their challenge themselves. But like the Semien example given in this thread (or possibly another, can't keep track), the current mechanics don't allow the player any real agency. They might as well just compare numbers at the start of the war and say 'oops, I lost, he has 30K troops and I can only get 15K'. That's not fun. That's not even playing a game. And that's what current CK2 feels like.
 
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I agree, but the beauty of Paradox games is the assymetric difficulty levels. Playing as the Umayyads is easy mode. Playing as a Zoroastrian count is super hard mode. The AI doesn't need to be perfect to allow players to be challenged -- they can choose their challenge themselves. But like the Semien example given in this thread (or possibly another, can't keep track), the current mechanics don't allow the player any real agency. They might as well just compare numbers at the start of the war and say 'oops, I lost, he has 30K troops and I can only get 15K'. That's not fun. That's not even playing a game. And that's what current CK2 feels like.

You put it better than I ever could, thanks.
 
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