Conciliatory Stance Useless

[KalypsoKirin]

When the council of Trent starts, the pope immediately choses all the harsh stances, even though almost all catholic nations throw their weight behind the Conciliatory position. Shouldn't there be some sort of punishment for going against popular opinion, like there is with incidents in the HRE? Now I have to deal with having a -80 opinion on heretics or convert lose all my powerful allies from the -80 opinion of heretics they have, which means I can't change my religion even though I'm being devoured by reformation centers that won't even touch the rest of Europe.

I've also noticed that AI papal states never reduces reform desire, which often means the reformation pops well before the 1500's, making the age of discovery so short that some age abilities (mainly those concerning colonization) aren't available long enough for them to have a lasting impact. This makes me reticent to play nations that focus primarily on colonialism, like Portugal or Spain, simply because I know that big boost that I've waited 20 years to earn enough splendor to buy will only last another 15.

 

[Sidolowka]

which often means the reformation pops well before the 1500's

What do you mean the reformation started in 1517, it obviously started in 1476, 41 years before that.

Because yes, the age of discovery should end before Columbus even fucking left Castile.

Jokes aside, this could mean that with a specific combination of bad AI and Enrique, the age of discovery could end before Castile even gets their first explorer. Very logical.

 

[KalypsoKirin]

What do you mean the reformation started in 1517, it obviously started in 1476, 41 years before that.

Because yes, the age of discovery should end before Columbus even fucking left Castile.

Jokes aside, this could mean that with a specific combination of bad AI and Enrique, the age of discovery could end before Castile even gets their first explorer. Very logical.

I've never been papal controller during the Council of Trent, but if it pulls from the curia treasury to pass consessions, the AI's refusal to buy down reform desire could also be why they choose the radically unpopular harsh positions before all catholic countries even choose a stance.

 

[Vaximillian]

What do you mean the reformation started in 1517, it obviously started in 1476, 41 years before that.

Imagine adding all these new Catholic tags and not balancing reform desire accordingly. Memes are more important.

 

[KalypsoKirin]

Imagine adding all these new Catholic tags and not balancing reform desire accordingly. Memes are more important.

I don't think it's that reform desire grows too quickly, it's that the pope literally never spends 500 of their 10,000 ducats to reduce reform desire, ever.

 

[swagmeister]

I don't think it's that reform desire grows too quickly, it's that the pope literally never spends 500 of their 10,000 ducats to reduce reform desire, ever.

But it does grow too quickly.

 

[cetvrtak]

View attachment 595418

You can see that AI Milan - Curia controller - has taken Conciliatory Stance, however they've been taking the Harsh path Measures. Furthermore, Conciliatory has considerably more countries in its favor which incurs greater cost on Coffers.

The whole mechanics is pretty much broken. Even if the Curia controller itself takes conciliatory stance, they enact harsh measures.

 

[Skagzill]

Honestly, Reform desire shouldnt grow from countries that didnt embrace Renaissance, imo. That will slow down growth enough in my opinion.

 

[LukasYork]

Reform desire grows way to quickly, that's not debatable. It's a fact. I played over 10 runs already with emperor and not a single time reformation started after 1500.
AI pope not using Investigate Heresy is actually a good thing the way it works right now. If it would reformation would start even earlier (I did as Pope and ended up with reformation around 1480 even though I completely emptied my curia coffers) because +50% PERMANENT reform desire growth for every investigation of heresy is INSANE.

As to choosing stance in council of Trent > Actually it seems completely random to me. Many times pope has chosen conciliatory stance despite majority voting harsh, so it kinda works both ways. I just never know what it's gonna be unless you happen to be Papal Controller when the council starts.

Also being Papal Controller became very hard to achieve sometimes. My last run Pope always had invested like 200 influence into becoming curia controller which have me less than 10% chance of becoming it after spending almost 100 points myself.

There are also more issues with Catholicism and reformation that were not touched here yet, like the major downsides of crushing the reformation too early. This should be an achievement celebrated across the entire Catholic world. Instead it gives you nothing and robs you of:
1. Joined the league military bonus (+ Yearly Army Tradition and military tech cost reduction)
2. "Won the league war" age of absolutism goal
3. Catholic Empire bonus! (legitimacy/ToTF/Missionary Strength/Imperial Authority Growth
4. Enforcing religion on heretic princes
5. Revoking Electorate
6. And of course the league war itself with it's insane 50% AE reduction to grabbing land and the best way to wreck Ottomans

There should be some really good event/modifier for the league never forming, that would also set the official faith of the empire to catholic. This should also count as winning the league war for certain purposes (like triggering the "Catholic Empire" modifier

 

[KalypsoKirin]

Reform desire grows way to quickly, that's not debatable. It's a fact. I played over 10 runs already with emperor and not a single time reformation started after 1500.
AI pope not using Investigate Heresy is actually a good thing the way it works right now. If it would reformation would start even earlier (I did as Pope and ended up with reformation around 1480 even though I completely emptied my curia coffers) because +50% PERMANENT reform desire growth for every investigation of heresy is INSANE.

As to choosing stance in council of Trent > Actually it seems completely random to me. Many times pope has chosen conciliatory stance despite majority voting harsh, so it kinda works both ways. I just never know what it's gonna be unless you happen to be Papal Controller when the council starts.

Also being Papal Controller became very hard to achieve sometimes. My last run Pope always had invested like 200 influence into becoming curia controller which have me less than 10% chance of becoming it after spending almost 100 points myself.

There are also more issues with Catholicism and reformation that were not touched here yet, like the major downsides of crushing the reformation too early. This should be an achievement celebrated across the entire Catholic world. Instead it gives you nothing and robs you of:
1. Joined the league military bonus (+ Yearly Army Tradition and military tech cost reduction)
2. "Won the league war" age of absolutism goal
3. Catholic Empire bonus! (legitimacy/ToTF/Missionary Strength/Imperial Authority Growth
4. Enforcing religion on heretic princes
5. Revoking Electorate
6. And of course the league war itself with it's insane 50% AE reduction to grabbing land and the best way to wreck Ottomans

There should be some really good event/modifier for the league never forming, that would also set the official faith of the empire to catholic. This should also count as winning the league war for certain purposes (like triggering the "Catholic Empire" modifier

I rarely play catholic, and haven't even touched the papacy, so I never realized that buying down reform desire would result in it triggering earlier than if you hadn't.
Guess that's just silly ol' me assuming that the mechanic they added to keep the reformation from popping early was balanced to actually keep the reformation from popping early.

 

[Guibou]

I rarely play catholic, and haven't even touched the papacy, so I never realized that buying down reform desire would result in it triggering earlier than if you hadn't.
Guess that's just silly ol' me assuming that the mechanic they added to keep the reformation from popping early was balanced to actually keep the reformation from popping early.

They ''fixed'' it in later patch, because on release (1.30.1) you could delay reformation the whole game. It's just one extreme to the other in this case.

If you want to see it in action check this out :

 

[grotaclas]

3. Catholic Empire bonus! (legitimacy/ToTF/Missionary Strength/Imperial Authority Growth
4. Enforcing religion on heretic princes

If you kill the reformation early, you can still get catholic as the official HRE religion and these two effects. As long as the erbkaisertum reform has not been passed(which would create religious peace in the HRE), the event The Diet of $CAPITAL_CITY$ can happen after 1625 and make catholic the official faith.

 

[Xetfield]

If you kill the reformation early, you can still get catholic as the official HRE religion and these two effects. As long as the erbkaisertum reform has not been passed(which would create religious peace in the HRE), the event The Diet of $CAPITAL_CITY$ can happen after 1625 and make catholic the official faith.

I also dislike that (religious peace after reform). It makes no sense whatsoever and hurt my game when I enacted this in 1570: The Pope left, meaning I had to go to war with him again in order to get him back and I cannot demand conversion from few reformed nations.