Concerns about flavor/character

[KaRappa]

One of my biggest concerns so far is the lack of flavor we've seen in any of the DD's so far - I know there's still plenty of time but essentially all we've seen is some basic character traits and a few wonders that you can build as Rhodes or Egypt.

Personally I'm worried that the world will feel really dry, like EU 4 did at release and sort of still does even now to some degree. I want to see character events even if we ourselves are not playing the characters, I want to see more flavor events depending on our culture, religion, government type and geographical location. I would love to see more abilities to build wonders, maybe even ones that didn't exist but make sense flavor wise and theoretically could have existed, after all it's not like the wonders that got built were the only ones that could have existed in a different timeline.

EU 4 personally really did very little for me because it felt so dry, HoI4 had mods that fixed this (namely Kaiserreich) and Ck2 became more and more fleshed out over time by both DLC and mods, stellaris is also finally reaching a point where I feel my empire has some actual flavor and isn't just a big blob of color.

Characters larger than life were a huge part of this period in history and if characters can't have cool events that show their meteoric rise to power alongside that of their nation I feel like it'd be very hard for me to actually feel like I'm dong anything but playing an abstract button masher like EU4.

 

[Darth.]

EU4 is not dry at all. There's really a lot of events, unless you're playing as a tiny nation in the middle of nowhere.

Also, the game is WIP so maybe wait for more DDs? They still haven't got past revealing the entire map and countries to us.

 

[KittyYuln]

I'm hoping to see more different flavours between countries, than we've seen thus far. What we've got now is 3 government types and some different military traditions, which break up the world into somewhat different flavours. There is the different religions, but from what I've seen all the omens are the same just with slightly different names, I'm hoping that as we see more, it'll be clear that the religions are more different than just renamed omens and maybe slightly shifted bonuses.
There are ideas, but you can switch them out pretty quickly, which doesn't actually give you a flavour for your country, but temporary bonuses instead.

I'm hoping to see something like national ideas or the stellaris traits and ethics that makes a difference. I know that inventions have the potential to nudge your empire in a specific direction but I've yet to see whether they actually have enough sway to really change the flavour of your nation.

 

[Zenith Darksea]

EU4 is not dry at all. There's really a lot of events, unless you're playing as a tiny nation in the middle of nowhere.

Also, the game is WIP so maybe wait for more DDs? They still haven't got past revealing the entire map and countries to us.

Sure, the game is WIP and we don't know for sure what the finished product will be like, but they're aiming for an early 2019 release date so there isn't that much time for them to put new features in. I share the OP's concern about depth. Right now it looks like the game is extremely broad, with hundreds if not thousands of provinces and factions, but a lot of the mechanics that we're seeing are pretty shallow and not very differentiated from one faction to another. The game's Roman Republican government was a perfect example of this, where they opted for a patently ahistorical system (probably identical to the other republics in the game but with Latin localisation) simply because it was easier to implement.

 

[Cephei80]

i have played the old eu4 and never felt that . i have played with byzantium and morroco and with both nations i had a very busy first 200 years full with drama and action and things to do (most of them about survival and not steamrolling).
the map still same since 2015 , it just improuved visually and got few more provinces but the map look exactly same to me .
it all depend with who you are playing with . even back in 2015 with morroco i got a good number of events that have made me really believe its something identical to the struggle the morrocans had with the iberians .

also in the videos of imperator today the events did pop up almost each 20 seconds in all videos especially the boii one so idk what you are talking about . i am kinda tired with those "concerns " topics . havent you learned from stellaris yet ? the 1.0 will have a short life so dont get worried a lot about the blank release version .

 

[Smokez83]

I think that there's more concern about things than is really warranted at this stage. Yes, they've given a broad overview, but a DD can only go into so much depth and detail. The question is do you want them working on the game or spend all their time telling you what they want to do that they run out of time to do it? Even if the base game begins fairly basic, experience shows us that they will build on that in short time, as Cephei80 pointed out. At the moment I feel the DDs are deliberately broad. They have a lot to cover and, considering they are still working on the game, might have a few other things to do other than write diaries. I can't think of many companies that keep their fans as up to date as Paradox does, and it must be time consuming. I'd rather them work on the game and give me broad strokes of information than show me a 'this is what we could have done if we had more time'.

 

[Cephei80]

I think that there's more concern about things than is really warranted at this stage. Yes, they've given a broad overview, but a DD can only go into so much depth and detail. The question is do you want them working on the game or spend all their time telling you what they want to do that they run out of time to do it? Even if the base game begins fairly basic, experience shows us that they will build on that in short time, as Cephei80 pointed out. At the moment I feel the DDs are deliberately broad. They have a lot to cover and, considering they are still working on the game, might have a few other things to do other than write diaries. I can't think of many companies that keep their fans as up to date as Paradox does, and it must be time consuming. I'd rather them work on the game and give me broad strokes of information than show me a 'this is what we could have done if we had more time'.

the funny is that the devs dont even try to answer those concerns topics anymore because the answer is in the game or simply cannot be put in the game yet . for example someone posted a topic about migration and no dev answered but 2 days later one youtuber tweeted that he is surprised that there is indeed huge tribal migrations and invasions etc ... it was a concern for him aswell but he didnt get the answer until he tried the game .

 

[Will Steel]

I just noticed a big issue in the videos. Surely there is more intelligent, mature terminology to be put into the game than "Sell Oratory Power" and "Buy Military Power"? What is this even? Why are primary school kids writing the in-game text for Paradox?

We've already seen that they like to just add "XYZ power" next to a random thing and call it a day, but this is getting weirder. They should at least make some effort to make the reviled mana magic a bit more immersive.

Usually mana is the biggest flavour breaker, but as long as it is kept reasonably termed and immersive it works. This is not how it is done. I really, really hope this is just WIP, beta terminology.

It would be better if they turned the already ridiculous mana trading system into actual actions. Pressing those buttons should create an event chain with multiple choices, and also have a chance to backfire and not always succeed 100% of the time. Let's take a look:

Oratory Power (or whatever that means)

When you want to convert money into oratory mana, you should get an event that allows you to do things like:

- Hold public speeches in the capital, based on your ruler's personal stats. Your campaigning will give you mana and popularity, but cost you money.
- Organize a party of nobles. Gives you money but raises your oratory power AND influence with those senators/nobles. May even lead further down a "party" event chain with chances of friendships, rivalries, gambling and affairs.

When you are doing vice versa and converting oratory mana back to money, you should get events with things like:

- Hold a fundraiser in the Senate/royal court. Senators will actually contribute money to your treasury from their personal wealth. But itt will also slightly decrease their loyalty for a time.
- Raise a tax. Be somewhat reviled by public and lose popularity, but gain money.

Religious Power (again, what does this even mean)

Converting money into religious mana should give you events with options like:

- Grant patronage to temple of your choice (event should contain some historical choices based on faction/culture).
- Build a shrine to [insert deity here]. Should make omens related to them a bit better.
- Throw a festival. Massive ruler popularity boost, lots of religious mana, various empire-wide effects...at a huge cost.

Converting the mana back to money should give you options like:

- Sell a relic. Gives you money at the cost of mana and temporary prestige malus.
- Seize money from a temple's treasury. Gods will be angry, omens get higher fail chance, but you got the money.

Civic Power

Converting money into civic mana would involve events choices like:

- Organize gladiator games/chariot races in honour of [insert character here]. He or she gets popularity boost, you get civic mana, and cash gets spent in large quantities.
- Donate money to the poor. Spends your gold, gives you civic mana and probably raises a few people to happy citizens.
- Build schools and/or baths, just as an example option. Raises quality of life in an area, and gives you mana in exchange for huge money stashes. As I said this should be an event chain.

Converting it back to money means:

- Host a public fundraiser if you are a republic or your monarch is very popular. You spend mana, but your citizens give you cash in return.
- Ignore a corrupt governor. He'll give you some money from his personal stash as well as the province, but this raises your corruption and costs you mana.

Military Power

Converting money into military power should give you event with options like:

- Grant donative to the troops. Lots of cost, but gives you military power and maybe makes a legion more loyal.
- Sponsor a recruit training campaign. Gives you manpower and military mana, costs a lot.
- Grant extraordinary powers to a general in exchange for his army becoming more loyal to him than you. Gives you mana at a huge cost and some corruption.

Converting it back to money should be:

- Intimidate peasants and farmers and confiscate their money. Gain gold in return for unpopularity and revolt risk.
- Maybe seize the estates of a wealthy senator (of your choice) by force. He'll become very disloyal but you gain anywhere from 40% to 80% his personal wealth.
- [during war time] Raid the enemy villages. Works as long as you have an army in the enemy lands whether or not you occupy them. Gives you lots of money, but depletes the targeted province, sometimes kills a few Pops, makes them more resentful (especially if you annex it later) and costs mana.
- Sack enemy city. Should be an option for barbarians to gain quick cash at the cost of mana.

... ... ...

Also, these options should have a dynamic cooldown timer, also based on success rate of the event. Which means if you are a republic, you have to simply elect another guy to enable this action again. Monarchies would be more successful in their attempts, but at the cost of higher time before buttons become available again.

It would be even more immersive and flavourful if these events don't give you mana or gold instantly, but instead in the coming month or two. This would allow player to plan.

 

[Smokez83]

I understand the concerns, however, I for one am happy to wait and see what the final product is going to be and, even then, what direction it is going to take after release. If it gets the same level of support as CK2 and Stellaris then I expect an extremely high level of support that will allow you to have multiple playthroughs, taking different choices and directions each time, experimenting with nations etc. I do believe that Paradox value the relationship they have built with their fans and do listen to their input, but seeing a lot of 'concerns over (insert feature here)' from a game that is not even released yet, but instead based on interpretations of DDs, must start to grate on the team a bit. I fully understand that many are upset over the one consul decision, for example, or the use of mana, but the fact is we don't actually know how it would all work and what their plans are for the future. Yes, I would prefer 2 consuls, and at periods of war I want to appoint a dictator. However, if all the effort was put in to creating a historical Rome, then other nations would surely suffer. Create a baseline, then use the profits from that to fund the changes to turn it from a good game (Stellaris/CK2 1.0) to a great game (both games now).

 

[Rostan]

True on the use of mana-like mechanics breaking immersion to some point. Now, in a game that cannot simulate everything, such proxy `resources` make sense. Of course, I would have preferred it if money were only complimented by civic and military power, and religions had a system of strength similar to CK2. Of course, EU4 took this to ridiculos extremes, replacing population with `development` and trade volume with `trade power`.

 

[Nyrael]

There won't be much flavor in vanilla. Which for me is fine: it's better to focus on general gameplay first and create a strong foundation for later updates then waste time and resources on something that can be made much better later than now.

 

[Smokez83]

There won't be much flavor in vanilla. Which for me is fine: it's better to focus on general gameplay first and create a strong foundation for later updates then waste time and resources on something that can be made much better later than now.

This. I don't expect a perfect game on release. I am very much looking forward to this game and can't wait to play it, but I also anticipate there will be frequent tweaks and updates. I also expect DLCs, in a similar style to other Paradox games. As long as these are done right and they add something more to the game, I'm happy with that. I have no doubt there will be features that annoy me or don't work so well as was originally thought, but that's where post-launch support becomes vital. Let's get a strong baseline and build from there.