Concerns about features and balance of 1.23&CoC

[Sfan]

it's calculated from 1.9 disinherits since thats how mouch an average,a good player disinherits in mp game

It's more in SP. In MP you can't disinherit and fall below 0 prestige or that might make you lose a war, or at least that's risky to do so if you border a rival with 80 prestige, the morale gap will be huge. In SP you can ignore that and consistently disinherit until you have a 12 stats ruler, or at least a 10 stats with 5+ in admin.

 

[magni_]

well 50prestige is 5% morale
and thats not the bigest of deals
thats like having defender of the faith or not having it

 

[seriousgigi]

- Legalism gives tech cost reduction and mysticism gives land morale. I'm a bit confused.

this is one of the most disliked feature for me since the release. no one in the game can achieve that 10% land moral or tech cost when they want. even in the jake's saladin run he couldn't get neither 10% tech cost nor 10% moral in the first 150 years.

there should be a button for increasing or decrasing it as the whole other religions (catholics, calvinists, protestants, orthodoxes, budists) have. my game time is more than 3000 hours and i don't remember that i cared being pious or not because it is too hard to keep it in one direction and this is ridiculous. why pdx insist to connect islam bonuses with events i don't get it.

also the AI is far more worst to use it. in fact the AI can't even use this being or not being pious. so it is literally a trash feature since the release.

- Hanafi gives adm tech cost -5%

complete trash. the ottomans lost 580 ADM points and if you count older core nerfes it is like 650 ADM points. This 5% is just nothing to compare with it.

 

[Sfan]

It used to be extremely easy to come near to 100. It's different now that Sheikh-ul-Islam, Khalifa, Denouncement of Sect Practices and Islamic Center of Scholarly Learning push in different directions; I still think that by going to war enough it's pretty easy to push it in a direction. You still get it by attacking fidels/infidels from what I saw on Florry's stream. And there are more events.

 

[I'm gaming]

no one in the game can achieve that 10% land moral or tech cost

Having maximum bonus is hard, but maintaing more than 75 or less than 75 is not that hard. When I played Islam, I enjoyed tech cost reduction from unpious and dhimmi.

the ottomans lost 580 ADM points

Not 580. I calculated wronly, only Karaman and Candar, but Ottoman has two more cores. Total adm loss is 780.

 

[Bibor]

You can just stomp AIs and get prestige.

Sure, but it costs money and manpower. So not free

Not 580. I calculated wronly, only Karaman and Candar, but Ottoman has two more cores. Total adm loss is 780.

Which means Middle East will finally be a contested zone, not an Ottoman freebie. Great. Puts Ottos in the same position as France (i.e. powerful, but a pain for AI France to expand).

 

[TheAtreides84]

2. Islam
- Legalism gives tech cost reduction and mysticism gives land morale. I'm a bit confused.

This especially is extremely confusing. Aside from historical considerations (focus on orthodoxy benefiting the spread of new ideas? Enforcing jizya boosting recruitment? Akbar the Great favoring legalism?), there are obvious gameplay discrepancies. Attacking countries of your own religion gives you mysticism points and missionary bonuses, which you don't need in the provinces you just conquered. On the contrary, when you actually convert provinces you drift toward legalism and your missionaries become worse.

And ideas. Now the religious group synergies with mysticism, but it gives you a permanent casus belli against infidels, which instead promotes legalism. It's even stated on the DLC banner, "attitude toward innovation and syncretism": and yet syncretism and innovation are opposite in-game. For the life of me, I can't see any sense in this.

 

[Rabid]

This especially is extremely confusing. Aside from historical considerations (focus on orthodoxy benefiting the spread of new ideas? Enforcing jizya boosting recruitment? Akbar the Great favoring legalism?), there are obvious gameplay discrepancies. Attacking countries of your own religion gives you mysticism points and missionary bonuses, which you don't need in the provinces you just conquered. On the contrary, when you actually convert provinces you drift toward legalism and your missionaries become worse.

And ideas. Now the religious group synergies with mysticism, but it gives you a permanent casus belli against infidels, which instead promotes legalism. It's even stated on the DLC banner, "attitude toward innovation and syncretism": and yet syncretism and innovation are opposite in-game. For the life of me, I can't see any sense in this.

I think it's a good change for gameplay, it makes you actually need to dedicate some resources to conversions instead of just getting free +3% missionary power just for declaring on religious enemies. It definitely encourages further use of the Dhimmi estate.

There are a few NI sets with a -5 monthly shift in the Piety scale (i.e. towards mysticism) so those states can still have "declare lots of wars and convert with bonuses" as their main strategy.

 

[TheAtreides84]

I think it's a good change for gameplay, it makes you actually need to dedicate some resources to conversions instead of just getting free +3% missionary power just for declaring on religious enemies. It definitely encourages further use of the Dhimmi estate.

There are a few NI sets with a -5 monthly shift in the Piety scale (i.e. towards mysticism) so those states can still have "declare lots of wars and convert with bonuses" as their main strategy.

I can get behind the idea that syncretism is better at converting because it blends with local customs (like jesuits in China: the game doesn't really distinguish peaceful from forced conversion, but still), but not in the way it is implemented. Right now if you use your missionary bonus at high mysticism you literally lose a chunk of that bonus with each converted province. Also there are things like Defender of the faith nerfing tech, while sticking to orthodoxy buffs it, or having religious countries selecting theologically unorthodox outcomes in events if they want to improve their missionaries. There is no rationale.

 

[wergy]

Ottomans are fine at the moment Mamluks are insanely aggressive and rather powerful. They expand into Arabia and Africa like crazy and the ottos have no chance beating them in a fair fight. I'm not sure if I welcome or dislike these changes.

 

[Sfan]

"No chance" is a bit too far, considering they seem to win quite often in the early runs we see. Not always as previously, but definitely more than once in a lifetime.

 

[Rabid]

I can get behind the idea that syncretism is better at converting because it blends with local customs (like jesuits in China: the game doesn't really distinguish peaceful from forced conversion, but still), but not in the way it is implemented. Right now if you use your missionary bonus at high mysticism you literally lose a chunk of that bonus with each converted province. Also there are things like Defender of the faith nerfing tech, while sticking to orthodoxy buffs it, or having religious countries selecting theologically unorthodox outcomes in events if they want to improve their missionaries. There is no rationale.

Yes, the "change on conversion" thing is a bit weird now I will admit and some other modifiers to the Piety slider should be looked at.