Concerns about features and balance of 1.23&CoC

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1. Mamluk government
- Ruler admin +2. I bet no one expected this. I can accept +1 considering their meritocracy and election, but +2 goes too far. Chinese emperor with full reformation only has +1.
- No bonus from diplo, military action with foreign ruler.
- If I reconquer Egypt and adopt Mamluk government as Hisn Kayfa, then will I not be able to maintain Ayyubids?

2. Islam
- Legalism gives tech cost reduction and mysticism gives land morale. I'm a bit confused.
- Hanafi gives adm tech cost -5%, instead of tech cost -5%. Inviting scholar costs 50 adm points, and you can save only 30 adm points from adm tech cost -5%. Who on earth wants to invite Hanafi scholar? I agree with that tech cost -5% is too powerful, but adm tech cost -5% is also too weak.

3. Chinese emperor
- Nerfs are good, but players will no longer want to take mandate.
- Taking mandate should give fixed mandate for tens of years to prevent mandate loss from lack of tributaries. Also, it should give more benefit at conquering China such as giving territorial cores. Currently, taking mandate isn't beneficial at all and no one will take mandate at 1.23.

4. Professionalism and Drilling
- Paying professionalism for manpower seems very good at late game, but much worse than just hiring mercenaries at early game.
- Is supply limit +50% of supply depot additive or multiplicative? If it is additive, paying 20 mil points seems too much, considering its other effect at reinforcing.
- Maintaining many mercenary regiments doesn't cost any professionalism loss. You only lose professionalism from hiring.
- You can't get benefit from 100% drill, as you should increase army morale after drilling and months needed for morale also decreases drill. Achieving 100% drill should give 6 months or so of preventing drill loss.
- Reducing professionalism from maintaing mercenaries and allowing mercenaries to be drilled seem better.

5. Ottoman government
- Adding 5 years of cooltime and giving drilling bonus to Jannisary are good.
- Janissary coup needs negative stability to be fired. Players will not suffer from the disaster. AI will be harder to have disaster, too.
- Is it compensation for nerfing Ottoman harshly? Then buff it and make Janissary coup be easy to fire.
- Giving recruiting cost penalty to Pasha seems to increase micro.

6. Merchant republic and other governments which lack of estates
- Though 1.23 updates events to give discounted advisors, with upgrading advisors, discounted advisors will become much more important.
- However, governments which lack of estates can't have discounted advisors from estates, on top of other OP bonuses from estates.
- Also, trade cities are created with no idea groups(like economy, trade, quality, etc) and no unit skins. They are created with zero idea and basic pikeman skin for musketeers and cavalry. How can this happen? In addition, their national ideas are all random and full of trashes such as looting speed, prestige from battle, rebel support, cavalry ratio, LIBERTY DESIRE IN SUBJECTS, GLOBAL TARRIFS, STATE MAINTENANCE, MISSIONARY, etc etc etc. They also pick useless idea groups like RELIGIOUS AND ADMINISTRATIVE. I checked that the bug that trade cities have alliances with countries other than trade league leader, but things I said above should've been fixed more than an year ago. No, those things shouldn't happen. I know that I went too far from the topic, but Mare Nostrum is a DLC which doesn't polished nearly at all.
 

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The Ottomans haven't really been nerfed that greatly, large countries profit even more from being large with the new building AI. If I remember it correctly, in Florryworry's stream they absorbed 2.6 million losses in a single war without going into financial trouble (and also without a single rebellion). Granted, this was on VH, but they're not weak. They're really, really not.
 

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The Ottomans haven't really been nerfed that greatly, large countries profit even more from being large with the new building AI. If I remember it correctly, in Florryworry's stream they absorbed 2.6 million losses in a single war without going into financial trouble (and also without a single rebellion). Granted, this was on VH, but they're not weak. They're really, really not.
Ottoman loses core of 58 developments and has Hanafi, one of the worst schools. Discipline +5%, ICA +10% and manpower recovery +20% are altered to Janissary unit, which has received damage -10%, drilling speed +100%, reinforcement cost +100%, and costs 50 mil points for several regiments. Benefit from smarter building AI is applied to all countries, including Mamluk which has more starting develipments than Ottoman.

Definetely a harsh nerf. If you mention one example from streaming , I should mention that there are two timelapses that Ottoman is completely conquered by Mamluk. Now everything can happen. Ottoblob or NOttoman, no matters.
 
Last edited:

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Ottoman loses core of 58 developments and has Hanafi, one of the worst schools. Discipline +5%, ICA +10% and manpower recovery +20% are altered to Janissary unit, which has received damage -10%, drilling speed +100%, reinforcement cost +100%, and costs 50 mil points for several regiments. Benefit from smarter building AI is applied to all countries, including Mamluk which has more starting develipments than Ottoman.

Definetely a harsh nerf. If you mention one example from streaming , I should mention that there are two timelapses that Ottoman is completely conquered by Mamluk. Now everything can happen. Ottoblob or NOttoman, no matters.

Even with a "harsh" nerf they are still ridiculous. At least now we have SOME variance .a shred of hope that one day i can play look to the east and not see green everywhere all the time all day 24/7
 

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If I reconquer Egypt and adopt Mamluk government as Hisn Kayfa, then will I not be able to maintain Ayyubids?
I don't think you should. Mamluks refers to a Muslim warrior slave caste. Ayyubids do not belong to that caste.
The decision to adopt Mamluk government is basically the mamluks seizing the power from the Ayyubids again.
 

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I don't think you should. Mamluks refers to a Muslim warrior slave caste. Ayyubids do not belong to that caste.
The decision to adopt Mamluk government is basically the mamluks seizing the power from the Ayyubids again.
Yes, I understand this. But Iqtas which conquered Egypt can adopt MG, and it doesn't make sense itself- who one earth wants to give his power to slaves, which even doesn't exist before? Also, MG is too OP. I think that it needs another way to be implemented.
 

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Yes, I understand this. But Iqtas which conquered Egypt can adopt MG, and it doesn't make sense itself- who one earth wants to give his power to slaves, which even doesn't exist before? Also, MG is too OP. I think that it needs another way to be implemented.
I think the player controls not the country leader but some sort of "national spirit". So the decision taken is not necessary to the benefit of the ruler.

Just like "adopt plutocratic administration" basically means a coup from some merchant houses that exiles or kills the old royal house, hence the -4 stability.

Also, it is implied that the mamluks were always a powerful local caste in Egypt (and should probably also be in Syria and various other places). Historically they did hold lots of power under Ottoman rule.
 

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I think the player controls not the country leader but some sort of "national spirit". So the decision taken is not necessary to the benefit of the ruler.

Just like "adopt plutocratic administration" basically means a coup from some merchant houses that exiles or kills the old royal house, hence the -4 stability.
Yes, but that decision costs severe stability heat. I don't think that adopting MG costs that much.. As this is one of salespoints of CoC- Paradox needs to make the decision easily taken like MG OP.
 

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1. Mamluk government
- Ruler admin +2. I bet no one expected this. I can accept +1 considering their meritocracy and election, but +2 goes too far. Chinese emperor with full reformation only has +1.
- No bonus from diplo, military action with foreign ruler.
- If I reconquer Egypt and adopt Mamluk government as Hisn Kayfa, then will I not be able to maintain Ayyubids?

Well just on this - +2 ADM sounds amazing but it's not so great when you consider that you can't disinherit. I'd much rather the ability to disinherit than get +2 ADM to all my rulers.
 

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Well just on this - +2 ADM sounds amazing but it's not so great when you consider that you can't disinherit. I'd much rather the ability to disinherit than get +2 ADM to all my rulers.
As we will not have too young Sultans from the election(IIRC, I think that the election gives you age of 40 or so Sultans at streams) and we can appoint Sultan as general, I don't think that disinherit is need that much. Incompetent Sultans will die on their own during drilling. Also, disinherit isn't a thing which we can use always- 20 legitimacy and 50 prestige can't be ignored.
 

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As we will not have too young Sultans from the election(IIRC, I think that the election gives you age of 40 or so Sultans at streams) and we can appoint Sultan as general, I don't think that disinherit is need that much. Also, disinherit isn't a thing which we can use always- 20 legitimacy and 50 prestige can't be ignored.

Disinherit is just 50 prestige which is peanuts. I frequently do it 6+ times per ruler. Once you get rolling prestige is easy. Mamluke Government is something you have access to only as a major (either through starting as one or becoming one by conquering the relevant territory) - a major with Despotic Monarchy can pump out prestige to disinherit as fast as new heirs are born in most cases.

Legitimacy hit in addition to prestige is only for abdicate, but I'll still always hit that button too if it gets me a better ruler.
 

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Well just on this - +2 ADM sounds amazing but it's not so great when you consider that you can't disinherit. I'd much rather the ability to disinherit than get +2 ADM to all my rulers.
jes
+2 admin sounds great ar first but when u consider that the everage monarchy player has a king with 10.3 stats and the average republic a ruler with 11.2 then an average of 11 what the mamluks get is not so over powered (not speaking to the average of 12.3 of prussia or the 13.6 from ottos)
 

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Disinherit is just 50 prestige which is peanuts. I frequently do it 6+ times per ruler. Once you get rolling prestige is easy. Mamluke Government is something you have access to only as a major (either through starting as one or becoming one by conquering the relevant territory) - a major with Despotic Monarchy can pump out prestige to disinherit as fast as new heirs are born in most cases.

Legitimacy hit in addition to prestige is only for abdicate, but I'll still always hit that button too if it gets me a better ruler.
6 times.. Then you are right. But disinherit is also too strong.

jes
+2 admin sounds great ar first but when u consider that the everage monarchy player has a king with 10.3 stats and the average republic a ruler with 11.2 then an average of 11 what the mamluks get is not so over powered (not speaking to the average of 12.3 of prussia or the 13.6 from ottos)
Do Otto get 13.6? I thought that 12 or so.
 

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Disinherit is undoubtedly strong but also risky and it takes a while to get the hang of how to use it properly. I think it's appropriately powerful.
Considering frequency of disinheirt in real history, I think that disinherit of EU4 isn't appropriate.

jes,they do,since they can disinherit the pick from the event to get the event again
Are 10.3 of normal monarchy and 13.6 of Otto calculated from 2 disinherits?
 

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Disinherit has been nerfed by having religious centers now granting legitimacy instead of prestige. No more "prestige capped all the time". It was becoming ridiculous if you own Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina.
 

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Disinherit has been nerfed by having religious centers now granting legitimacy instead of prestige. No more "prestige capped all the time". It was becoming ridiculous if you own Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina.
jes, that was a realy good change, do republics get tradition from them ?
 

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Disinherit has been nerfed by having religious centers now granting legitimacy instead of prestige. No more "prestige capped all the time". It was becoming ridiculous if you own Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina.
You can just stomp AIs and get prestige.

jes, that was a realy good change, do republics get tradition from them ?
Oh interesting..